Lost Spirits licensing out to microdistilleries

The Black Tot · Post by **The Black Tot** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:39 pm

http://www.cocktailwonk.com/2015/04/los ... .html#more

I'd be interested in trying Prometheus, if it gets close to a 33yr demerara for a WHOLE lot less money.

If it's not cheap, there isn't much point.

Perhaps this technology might make it easier to make the case in convincing the TTB of the need for proper age statements on rum.

Post by **Capn Jimbo** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:01 pm

Just a few exerpts about this nuclear reactor....

"...In short, Lost Spirits has turned twenty years of waiting into seven days... ,,,charred blocks of wood go into tanks along with the unaged spirits (into) a “reactor” that condenses the process into a large box, roughly the size of a compact SUV, that’s delivered to the leasing distillery and then wired up for electricity and internet? The power is necessary for the pumps, computers, and other devices within. The internet connection will connect the reactor to Lost Spirit’s computers for control and monitoring... ...He (Bryan/Lost Spirits) expects that it will be several months before the first reactor is delivered, making a mid-2015 debut."

Lost Spirits has apparently published a "white" paper at:
http://media.wix.com/ugd/979470_a01a1c6 ... only).docx

From the "white paper":

"When charged with oak blocks and freshly-distilled alcoholic spirits, the reactor uses energy in various forms to trigger the myriad of chemical reactions that take place in a barrel as spirits age. The new technology has been proven so effective that in 6 days, it can make a spirit with a chemical profile closely approximating the chemical signature of a 20-year-old product."

"The underlying, patent pending, technology was developed by Bryan Davis on a prototype system at the Lost Spirits test distillery, located in a rural California. Five beta-test Model 1 reactors will be leased to other distilleries this summer. Once the software and hardware is fine-tuned, the reactors will become widely available in 2016."

He claims that his magic 6-day process eliminates angel's losses, thus reducing costs by "75%", which if actually true would mean the end of wood aging as we know it. He actually believes "...in the near future the rapid prototyping aspect of the (chromatographic) technology will be employed to bring back “lost spirits” like the legendary Wray & Nephew 17, used to create the Mai Tai cocktail, or the over 100-year old whiskey found on Earnest Shackelton’s abandoned ship. "

Enough already. Where are my hip boots?

*******
http://rumproject.com/rumforum//viewtop ... st+spirits

The Black Tot · Post by **The Black Tot** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:02 am

I know the concept isn't popular here.

But it's pertinent news that he's licensing out the process outside of his own distillery now.

Unlike the magic sticks for home "oakification", this guy's rums seem to be pleasing some people. I haven't tried them yet.

There are two possible outcomes: They will taste good, or they will taste bad.

What I like about him is he's honest about the rum being 7 days old. What he doesn't disclose is proprietary. If it doesn't taste right, then he's just like all the others. If it does taste great, then good for him.

I'd love for someone to try and ape Wray and Nephew 17 - WAN haven't gotten around to it - they must know it's something tiki enthusiasts would love to have.

Anyway, I'm listening for comments from people who have tried the rum and whose opinion I trust. You just never know. Maybe he HAS come a long way in the last few years...

Post by **Capn Jimbo** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:57 am

Tot, I feel your pain...

Over the years there have been many claims for fast aging, but none have succeeded. The end results may have been different or changed, but they in no way duplicate 20 or 30 years of aging in just 6 or 7 days (as he claims). Now if you like his rum, bully for you but please don't regard it as truly aged.

Most here know this, but for your benefit let me briefly review why: there are actually 3 different processes that take place simultaneously. These are additive processes, subtractive processes and interactive processes.

1. The additive processes occur first and rather relatively quickly (but not in 6 days). These include tannins (harsh, astringent), color and a few other components of the wood that migrate into the rum.

2. The subtractive processes take longer, as the barrels "breathe" over the years. These processes are in a way filtering the rum and removing negative elements.

3. Last are the interactive processes. Compound in the new rum react chemically with compounds in the wood to form new compounds (flavors and aromas). These new compounds then repeat the process with ever more newer compounds being created (complexity).

Here's the key: the interactive processes only occur over much time , and are dependent on earlier reactions (more time). The nasty early tannins are converted and reconverted. In time. All of the above processes are occurring at different rates, and there's no way around that. Believe me there have been any number of attempts to "force" breathing using pressure, inserted staves and the like, ad infinitum.

As for Lost Spirits, his "fast-aged" products have been reviewed by no less than Serge who made clear they were interesting, but in no way resembled a true aged spirit of that genre.

Flat Ass Bottom Line

These schemes have been tried for many, many years and not one has even come close to duplicating true aged rums. The best that can happen is to achieve a young rum notable for some quick and easy wood extractives - a process that must be ended quickly, not because the goal of duplicating a 20 year spirit has been achieved, but because any longer and the spirit will taste like wood. There is no such thing as "fast aging", but spirits receiving these "treatments" are really a genre in themselves. They do not, and have never been mistaken for truly aged spirits.

If they were, the inventor would be paid many millions of dollars for exclusive rights by one of the Big Three (who stand to save hundreds of millions of dollar is cooperage, angel's losses and storage). Think about it...

The Fat Rum Pirate · Post by **The Fat Rum Pirate** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:41 am

I don't like the idea of fast ageing or the consequences it could have on those rum producers who have diligently held onto aged stocks, in the belief that one day they will bear the fruits of their labour. I'm also not keen on drinking rum made with "science" as the first byword. Reminds me a of a nutty professor. Still, I don't think the "aged rum" market is that large or gullible enough to buy into adopting these fast aged spirits. I think Aged Rum enthusiasts will stick to traditionally aged fayre. I have no desire to try the Lost Spirits range (especially with prices in excess of £60 per bottle here in the UK).

I think I'll continue my rum journey with Independent UK Bottlers such as Mezan (thanks Dai!), Cadenheads and Bristol. And when I get really brave (or rich) I'll buy some more Velier.

AK9 · Post by **AK9** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:34 pm

in the link the second comment does mention about April's Fools day..Not sure if this is the case since as the FRP mentioned there are bottles for sale in UK.

The Fat Rum Pirate · Post by **The Fat Rum Pirate** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:48 pm

AK9 wrote:in the link the second comment does mention about April's Fools day..Not sure if this is the case since as the FRP mentioned there are bottles for sale in UK.

It's not an April Fool. The original post is on Cocktail Wonk. I've posted my skeptisism on the Facebook group The Global Rum Club and a few other Social Media sites I visit.

Lost Spirits are deadly serious as I've said I can't see the hardcore of rum drinkers going for it.

Steven from Rum Diaries Blog is sending me some 50ml bottle to try. I won't be reviewing them on my site as that's too small a sample but it will be interesting to see what they are like.

AK9 · Post by **AK9** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:42 pm

Thanks Pirate.

Can understand why they want to follow such a process but I would question the impact it will have on existing rum producers.
When someone invests and casks rum for many years, and then suddendly an easy route appears.

Obviously the question is whether the rum would be the same as the old rums.
It would be interesting to hear opinions from experienced drinkers..

Post by **Capn Jimbo** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:58 pm

AK - please read my post up just a few posts, as you'll find your answer there. Bottom line: There have been any number of attempts at "fast aging" and none of them work. There is no such thing. We've seen "magic lights", loud rock music, special inserted staves, shrink wrapping, alleged underwater aging, pulsating pressure and now Lost Spirits nuclear reactor.

They are endless. Not one has worked as you will see above.

Each of them has been hailed (by the promoter) as a scientific breakthough. Each tends to refer to a vague scientific principle that sounds great to the uninitiated - like all marketing tends to do - but which nonetheless don't work. The last time it was a pulsating pressure 6-day bourbon, that we actually got a sample of, and that was reviewed quite negatively by Bearmark. This is Lost Spirits second try; the first one didn't work either.

All are designed to separate the ignorant from their money, and are pure marketing moneky droppings. My post above details why, and provides a link. You might also use the forum's search function and do an "includes all words" search on "fast aging" and/or "small barrels".

Nothing replaces real aging, and if it did, the big guys would be all over it. They aren't.

bearmark · Post by **bearmark** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:20 pm

Is it fair to summarize using sentiments from both the Cap'n and The Black Tot to say that they may end with something that tastes good (Cleveland Whiskey did not), but it won't be "aged rum" without the age? They'll have to call it something else and I believe they should be required to do so. I'm with The Fat Rum Pirate in not being interested, especially at the price that Lost Spirits is demanding. Basically, "there's nothing to see here... move along."

Post by **Capn Jimbo** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:27 am

It's deja vu all over again...

Once again, Lost Spirits has announced yet another breakthrough via the usual suspect: Tiare, and at least one friendly blog and now the ADI, the last being skeptical to any fast aging scheme that conflicts with their own small barrel scheme that allows them to sell ever more equipment to deep pocketed hobbyists who are looking for a way - any way - to avoid tying up boatloads of cash for seven to ten years. And before knowing whether that aged product will be any good, or saleable, or popular, and on...

The idea that you can create an 7 year aged product in a few months using small barrels (the ADI), or a 20 year spirit in 6 days (Lost Spirit's nuclear reactor) is super attractive to dreamers and the basis for their wet dreams of aged spirits made in hours.

It just ain't so Joe...

...but as my favorite saying by Albert Einstein holds: "There are only two things that are infinite - the universe and the stupidity of man, and I'm not sure about the first one." We've spoken here to some of the really silly ideas - like underwater aging, or exposing the barrels to loud rock music (both actually promoted), but there are literally hundreds:

https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm ... ood&num=10

And guess what? Not one has worked. Believe me if any process even began to achieve real aging in days, the mega-distillers would be using it to save literally hundreds of millions of dollars in costs. BTW, although Lost Spirits and their Bryan Davis mad scientist claim a "patent pending", the filing could not be located via either the US government's or Google's patent searches.

But that could be me - if anyone can find this pending patent, please do post a link...

*******
AK and others: one of the ways these schemes seem to work is by being vague, "secret" or otherwise impossible to analyze. Fortunately I found a very talented analyst who provide a truly professional dissection of this current claim:
http://www.inwithbacchus.com/2015/04/of ... tions.html

Fascinating reading.

Post by **Capn Jimbo** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:26 am

For those who really care...

...the last link (bottom, just above) provides a professional's analysis of Davis' claims. To summarize this competent critique:

1. Davis relies on a single sample, hardly a basis for credibility. It's like saying I once went golfing and made a hole-in-one.

2. Davis relies on a chromatic analysis that shows only a partial analysis of a few components of a 30 year aged spirit. The professional properly notes that spirits have many more components, literally thousands that no one really understands. The fact that just five or six match - and only partially - means almost nothing in terms of the overall spirit.

It's like saying "I'm wearing the same uniform as an Olympic sprinter, so of course I can run just as fast"

3. He also notes Davis' conjecture that since his chromatographic "peaks" are 2/3 as high as those of the 30 year control, that this must mean his product is the equivalent of a 20 year spirit, which is pure speculation. There is absolutely no basis to make that simplistic claim. It assumes aging is a linear event.

Some supporting exerpts:

"First off, my problem here is they are using three spirits. Two control (the new make and 33 year old control) and the variable "aged" sample. First off, you can't even calculate a standard deviation. Or a confidence interval. Or error bars. This is bad."

"The focus on heavily reacted esters is...admirable...but, like a replicant, it is trying to fabricate one aspect of spirit maturation when there are so many facets that we don't understand and cannot replicate. It may look the same. It may constitute chemical similarity. But on the inside, I don't think it will BE the same."

In so many ways Davis' seems a clone of Balcone's Tate. Brash, overconfident, and way too sure of himself. In my view he has no basis as of yet to claim "a 20 year spirit in 6 days", a claim so clear and extreme that he will absolutely be held to it. For him to casually toss out that he will be able to exactly recreate lost rums from the past is well, just incredible.

He's made these surefire claims before, but now states well, those were just experiments, now THIS is the real deal. Sure.

*****
http://www.inwithbacchus.com/2015/04/of ... tions.html

Winston · Post by **Winston** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:36 pm

I'm curious to see how this turns out. The guys over there called me a couple months ago to see if Balcones would be interested in licensing the technology. I think we're a bit too in love with the old fashioned way of doing things to be an early adopter. Either way I'm working on getting a sample bottle of this to see for myself.

Quine · Post by **Quine** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:36 pm

I've read this thread now and the most salient note is that there is much more that ends up in a properly aged spirit than can be measured by chromatography! One can synthesise chemical reactions that emulate some of these changes but not all of them. Probably not most of them!

Hassouni · Post by **Hassouni** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:12 pm

The TL;DR is: their rum just doesn't taste very good.