Sugar - let's settle it for ourselves

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da'rum
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Post by da'rum »

Dunder is added to the ferment, not the end product.
Of course it is. Please excuse me I'm having a day.
I truly doubt there is unconverted anything in that morass
I think there would be a lot of unconverted sugars in dunder but I'm just a boof head amateur home distiller hobbiest.
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W's are sounded as V's in German, Nicht Wahr? Better to say 'Oder' though ;)
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Dai
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Post by Dai »

Didn't Jarimi say that the Finn's had the test sheets in the shops but, weren't allowed to put them on line. How about trying to get hold of the test sheets. Might be a lot easier.
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Capn Jimbo
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

Where we're at - and a finding!

Dai: the limited Alko sheets that were available were already obtained and published by the Count - until, unless and only if others become available. Do read the following - we finally have an easy and expensive answer that all of us can use right now to test all the rums we have - together, a huge collection.
After some professional advice from a couple friends (one a distiller, one a vintner) here's where we're at:

1. The distiller does not recommend a refractometer, as these compare a solution to distilled water. Since alcohol has a lower density, the Brix (sugar) readings will be too high. Still, I believe a correction table/graph can be created by testing a grain alcohol/water solution (at 40%) with increasing amounts of added sugar. To be tested. Cost: about $25. Advantage: quick, easy, very accurate, requires only drops to test.

2. The distiller did recommend using a hydrometer to test specific gravity of a rum. If sugar is present, the specific gravity (density) will be higher. The task again: to create a table as above. Cost: under $10. Advantage: quick, easy but less accurate (should be able to ID rums with sugar <3g/liter). Cons: requires more rum to fill test column (but which can be returned to the bottle); also <3g is not the result we seek.

3. The vintner noted the above issues, and recommended a number of techniques common in winemaking to test for “residual sugar” in a finished wine. These are all based on common methods used by diabetics to test their blood or urine sugar to determine if and how much insulin should be administered.


Special Note: the following copy was heavily edited/corrected based on Hass' excellent and accurate observation (see next post) . I mistakenly confused vintners' testing for "residual sugar" tests to mean testing for sucrose. Hass' hint: it's a glucometer, not a sucrometer", Fortunately, as the Compleat Idiot of Rum (and now sucrose too), I am allowed such deviations from obvious reality.


These include the Clinitest tablets, Diastix dip strips, and an ordinary glucometer, very accurate and quite economical. Unfortunately, and as the Compleat Idiot I interpreted "residual sugars" in finished wine to - urp - to mean or include well, sugar or sucrose. Wrong! It turns out that the "residual sugars" tested for emanate from the grapes which - urp, again - are "mostly glucose and fructose". Although some table sugar/sucrose is added to ferments, most of this is converted during the ferment. Thus the diabetic tests work just fine for vintners testing for glucose rich "residual sugars".

The maple sugar industry also widely uses these tests to measure and adjust "invert sugars". Although maple sap is entirely sucrose, it is the converted, glucose rich "invert sugars" that are being measured.

Thus my assumption that the glucometer might be the winning method turns out to earn an undisputed "10" on Sleepy's now relevent "Bogometer". A big thanks to Hass for pointing out I forgot to dress this morning...


Bottom Line

Seales' suggested hydrometer and methodology remains the leading candidate. I have one, and need only create a 40% alcohol/distilled water reference solution and test it with varying amounts of sugar/sucrose to create a table usable by all. While doing so, and while uncertain I'll also attempt creating a refractometer table, and this only because I'd much rather measure drops, and more accurately.

Stay tuned... and a big thanks to Hass, whose following comment caused this necessary edit.


In review...

1. Refractometer ($25) not certain, drops, accurate must be tested and table created. Still possible.

2. Hydrometer ($10), certain, est. 4 to 8 oz of rum, may require more than 3g/l to be noted, table must be created. Some concern over very low levels of sugar, but this will be determined. The now leading candidat

3. Diabetic tests (Clinitest, Diastix, Glucometer), all work, from 14 cents to 60 cents per test, but not for sucrose. Oops.
Last edited by Capn Jimbo on Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:32 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Post by Hassouni »

Except I presume the glucometer measures just glucose. Table sugar is sucrose, which is a mix of fructose and glucose. Other sweeteners have a different profile. Sounds like that may not be the best way?




*******
Capn's Log: Excellent! See correction above. Actually, unless the white sugar/sucrose breaks down in rum (and there is no evidence of this yet) a glucometer test is indeed useless insofar as testing for sucrose. What the vintner's are testing for are "residual sugars" (glucose/fructose). Maple sugar makers use the glucometer to measure and adjust the "invert sugars" which comes from converted sap/sucrose. It's back to the future, again.

A big thanks to Hass. The inexpensive hydrometer remains the leading candidate.
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

After several false starts...


All said and done there are only two possible ways this can be done:
  • 1. Richard Seales well noted that a simple and inexpensive hydrometer can be used on the basis that the a rum with sugar will have a higher specific gravity than the same rum without added sugar.

    The amount of sugar can be reasonably determined by testing a 40% sugar-free rum or test solution, then testing the same solution with various levels of added sugar, eg 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 etc. up to perhaps 50g per liter. This data will be used to create a chart/graph. Richard noted that very low levels of sugar may be difficult to read, but the preliminary tests will reveal any limitations of this approach.

    2. Richard also pointed out that a refractometer gives "nonsensical results", since these meters are designed to test against distilled water, not alcohol (which has a lower specific gravity). This was unfortunate in that these meters are otherwise VERY accurated and only require drops.

    My theory - untested - is that it may be possible to create a chart that accounts for the alcohol's specific gravity. The proof, of course is in the pudding. Thus I will simultaneously test the above prelimnary solution along with the hydrometer and compare the resultant results/tables. If the hydrometer proves to be consistent and accurate, it will be the preferred method.

    The smart money will go with Richard, but I reserve the right to have fun...
A refractometer has been ordered. Preliminary tests should begin next week...
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Post by da'rum »

Ha,.thank god for R.Seale eh?




*******
Capn's Log: it all came to me when I saw a ripe sweet papaya falling from my tree, and thought - maybe a refractometer CAN be made to work with rum testing. Remember, they laughed at Newton too...
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Capn Jimbo
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

Why the refractometer may still be made to work...


Mind you, the hydrometer will work, and a table will be developed so any who care to can test their rums. But here's why a refractometer may - may still be possible. Follow me if you can, lol...

1. Richard calls refractometer readings of rum "non-sensical".
  • His reasoning I believe is this. Although these meters - like a hydrometer - measure specific gravity, the difference is that the meter's readings are based on a comparison to distilled water (SG of 1.000). Since alcohol has an SG of less than 1.000, any sugar in the liquid (Brix reading) will be overstated. Another factor (per the Wiki) is that alcohol has different refractive index (1.361) than water (1.333) - this also affect readings as the meter is actually measuring the refraction of light through the test drops.

    Research revealed that refractometers use by wine or beermakers is limited in that that the readings must be taken before fermentation begins, as alcohol has a lower SG than water, thus the readings are artificially high. It would seem they are "non-sensical" to the extent that the alcohol content is actively changing in an active ferment. Another issue is that not all rums are of the same proof (changing alcohol levels).

    Thus the factors we must deal with are: lower SG of alcohol, slightly different refractive index and/or changing levels of alcohol.
2. But what if the alcohol levels aren't changing? And what if we can account for the changing levels of alcohol? If possible then the refractometer could be VERY effective, especially as its readings are precise and because only drops are required. Follow me (prancing away, dangling a banana)...
  • First - we are not dealing with a ferment in which the alcohol levels are in a state of flux. The alcohol level in a rum is relatively stable, so far so good. But the meter will give a high reading for the Brix (sugar) as the alcohol has a lower SG and higher RI than water, right? Right - but - what's more important is that the reading, even if high - is consistently high. If the readings are consistent, then what we need is a conversion which adjusts for this consistent difference. And how might that be done?

    A conversion table. Richard noted that although a hydrometer works, a table is also required. The table is easily produced by creating a test solution of 40% alcohol with distilled water, then adding known and amounts of sugar increasing from say 1 to 50g/liter - taking hydrometer measurements at each level, from zero to 50g. The table then becomes a published graph.

    My plan - and its a fair one - is to simultaneously take refractometer readings with two objectives: first, to assure the readings are consistent at each level, and if so - huzzah! - to then create a usable refractometer table/graph. The experiment will reveal all.
3. RS also pointed out that a small error in the hydrometer test is the fact that aged rums especially will have some dissolved solids emanating from the barrel. He notes that these barrel solids (not sugar) will be interpreted as sugar, and may return a reading of <3g when in fact, there is no sugar. Thus it will be difficult to discern a pure rum from one with low levels of sugar. But there's an answer:
  • This can be solved by using a reference rum - instead of a comparison against an alcohol/distilled water solution - to create our tables. These unsugared reference rums could include Bacardi Silver for white rums, Doorly's 5yo for light rum and Seales' Ten for aged rum. This should adjust for barrel solids for testing other rums.

Flat Ass Bottom Line

I'm not being stubborn here - sure - but I am very concerned with obtaining the most accuracy possible. If a refractometer can be properly calibrated in terms of a reliable table/graph we will have a truly easy, fast and very accurate method available to all. The fact that it uses drops is a big bonus. Either way, we will have a reliable method, and soon...
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Post by sleepy »

I have a few friends and/or 2nd degree friends who are chemists. What I'll offer up to this effort is that I'll have some conversations to a) figure out formulae to estimate sugar content from brix (?) measurements at different alcohol concentrations (otherwise, quite a few favored rums at 42-46% cannot be evaluated. And, b) see if someone would be willing to burn a few samples in a GC to confirm the calculations.

I know that I'm the party guilty of suggesting the refractometer, but I see another potential bugaboo - the coloring due to oak aging and/or coloring agents added. The effect - <shrug>
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Post by NCyankee »

How about boiling off a sample, or allowing it to dry - and weighing the residue?
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

We're getting closer...



Status report:

1. Based on a series of suggestions by RS, the primary candidate will be to use an ordinary and inexpensive hydrometer to measure alcohol content. These meters can be had for $12 to $16, so cost will not be a factor.
  • Basis: Alcohol is less dense than water. Added sugar and other solids will increase the density, ie a 40% pure rum will test at an expected 40% (or very close), while the same rum with added sugar will give a lower reading, say 30%. The difference in % can be converted into a difference in SG (specific gravity), and thence into Brix (solids) and thence into grams of sugar/liter (per a table being constructed now).

    To get a reading, the meter (which looks like a large glass thermometer with a bulb on the bottom) is floated in a column of rum and read for % of alcohol. Takes about 3 oz of rum (although the rum could be diluted with distilled water to save rum).

    Easy peasy. All that's required then is a conversion table (now almost done) to estimate sugar and solids. The only very minor issue per RS is that a very small amount of the solids tested may emanate from wood aging; however this can be accounted for by establishing known sugar free reference rums.
2. Sleepy, there are already conversion programs published by brewers, home distillers and vintners that will give us the conversion numbers - from % alcohol to specific gravity to Brix (assumed sugar solids). However, we'll definitely keep your contacts in mind if needed. Thanks for the offer - we may need them.

3. Yank, RS also pointed out that a very simple test for sugar/caramel is to simply boil off a quantity of rum. Added sugar will leave a notable residue. Just for fun, one could boil an ounce or two of know sugar-free rum (like Bacardi Superior, Doorlys 5yo, or Seales 10) for reference, then try say and ED15 or Z23.


Bottom Line:


This project has huge potential, particularly if done as a cohesive group using the same decent methodology.

As a group we have access to all of our collections - the results will cover far more rums than the Finnish and Swedish data. As a group, we can openly publish our data and methodology for others to follow. Although this can never be more than a good guesstimate, it will be incredibly revealing and if nothing else will raise consciousness about an issue that continues to grow and grow.

Personally I simply love real and pure spirits whose value and quality is the result of artistry in raw materials, yeast, fermentation, distillation, proper - honest and real aging and blending. I could give a monkey's ass about the bottle or the marketing. At this point, it is now time to find out who here is willing to invest $12 and some of their time and rum to contribute to the cause.

In the end it's about honesty and transparency. Who's in? This is gonna happen...
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Post by da'rum »

NCyankee wrote:How about boiling off a sample, or allowing it to dry - and weighing the residue?
Or make up a column still and run the rum through it. Get neutral from the run and set it aside. Then simply continue the run until 100°c is hit and remove the water. Anything left over would need to be weighed.

Plus side...you get the alcohol to keep without boiling it away.

Down side...You'd need about 20 bottles of rum to run a small column still effectively

Also you'd need a very sensitive scale to weigh the sugar left over.

A hydrometer is obviously the best choice but you'd need a 'pure rum' of exactly the same abv to use as a control.

Also do we need to measure how much sugar is in a rum or merely know that there is sugar added? After the question of 'is there?' is answered, the 'how much' becomes rather unimportant.




*******
Capn's Log: I know this thread has become a bit "busy", but this only in the interest of transparency and completeness. There will be no need to boil, distill or weigh. All you really need is a hydrometer and the ability to read and report your readings to The Project to be added to the master listing. It will literally take you mere seconds and you get the keep the rum you measured. All the controls and calculations will be done here.

I'm with da'Rum insofar as knowing IF not "how much" is the key information, as I assume that any distiller who is so low as to add hidden and unlabeled sugar will not likely stop there. Thus the most important fact is sugar - yes or no. Still, the will reveal the rough amount of sugar/solids anyway.
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

In the interest of simplicity...


1. RS has suggested using a hydrometer, and shared the methodology with me.

2. This would require participating members purchasing an inexpensive hydrometer.

3. All that needs done will be:
  • * pour about 3 oz of room temperature distilled water into the test column, take a reading and record it, discard.

    * pour about 3 oz of room temperature rum into the column and likewise read and record the result. Drink the rum or return to the bottle. Test again if you're thirsty, lol.

    * report the name of the rum, listed proof and the two readings to the Project, where your readings will be converted to rough sugar/solids.. . .
Image...Image


Seriously, it can't get much simpler. While we perform some test runs here and make some determinations as to a recommended purchase (about $12 to $15), it's time to sign up...

Who's in?




*******
Special Note: We already own a hydrometer and a refractometer has also been purchased. RS agreed that it IS possible to use a refractometer, but both methods will need a test run, likely next week. At that point we'll have a final method and things can proceed.
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Post by da'rum »

This makes too many presumtions for it to be accurate. I'd rather not leave it up to any one else to do the math for me. The control is where i think there is a problem. A poorly made list by people who arent 100% sure what they are doing isn't useful or helpful.

Our tastebuds can tell us if there is sugar or not. However if you continue buona furtuna



*******
Capn's Log: I do hope your observation is more accurate than your spelling ("presumtions"), lol - but even so and like this test, your point is not perfectly made but still reasonably communicated. RS - who does this for a living - has laid forth a good and equally reasonable methodology that can be used by most humanoids, and that will identify any significant addition of sugar. All of the math, tables and reference will be published for anyone's review and use; indeed this is encouraged - with those in hand, you can do your own math, so we'll count you in. Or out, lol.

Those who simply want to take and report readings is fine; the more the merrier, and the more rums available.

Hydrometers are really not that hard to read, particularly for the level of accuracy we're looking for. Whether Z-23 has roughly 36 to 38 grams of sugar/liter is of less consequence than knowing they use a lot more than <3g/l. The Finnish/Swedish lists and readings made a few really surprising reveals that our tastebuds missed - the El Dorados and Plantations. Trust me, their very high levels of sugar would have been easily be found by RS's hydrometer. I KNOW there are many others not on those lists.

As far as I'm concerned it's time to go forward, but if you have identified some "presumptions" and honestly believe there are "too many" of them, please do PM me and detail them and let's discuss them. Thanks to RS, I believe I know what they are, and that I can convince you they are rather minor, RS' position as well.
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Post by sleepy »

Assumptions (not presumptions) for the either of these methods:
% alcohol is correctly labelled on the bottle,
and, Substances modifying specific gravity are sugars (vs. e.g. solids from prune juice (REALLY?, but in Matusalem GR, it works for me))

For something like Zaya, with obvious addition of not only sugar, but caramel, and vanilla, what we'll get is some variant of a "modification index" - which is not necessary for Z rums - it's a given.

Just for the educational fun of it, I think that I might turn some of my chemist friend's students loose on this thread. He uses PBL (problem based learning) methods to teach analytic chemistry. Give them a list of rums so they can read reviews of those rums in the reviews section and, then, provide blind-labelled samples of the same rums.

Class teams would choose a method of assessing content and relating the results to reported flavors and character in the reviews.

Might be interesting... and fun for the kids (yes, I'm old enough to call college students kids). They had a blast with my wife's co-taught class on beer and coffee brewing.

More as I develop the thoughts and agreements - it won't be quick - likely Fall semester.
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Post by da'rum »

Gees one incorrectly chosen and poorly typed word and you guys are all over it! :lol: Thanks for the correction though, it's mistakes like those that go uncorrected and become habit. Like should 'of' instead of have etc.

I will look forward to seeing the results.
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