Split Topic, continues...
"The dunder was then added to new fermentations of molasses for the purpose of achieving amazingly complex results."
How do I have to visualize this? I mean, is there some master distiller going to the dunder dumping grounds and fetching a beaker of dunder to add to the new batch of molasses?
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Capn's Log: this and the following posts following were split from the Pusser's thread as the within is a valid, but separate topic. Carry on...
Never ending story: Dunder, banana peels & 6-day aging
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schlimmerdurst
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How use the Dundee?
This was an interesting article but it left me with 2 questions
1. How do they use the dunder? I mean do they just scoop up a couple of cups and pour it into the next fermentation batch?
2. Since rum starts with cane juice or molasses how is there anything in its dunder besides sugar or molasses? Apart from the odd unlucky bat, how do rotting fruits get in there? Do they throw all composting vegies and fruits in there?
1. How do they use the dunder? I mean do they just scoop up a couple of cups and pour it into the next fermentation batch?
2. Since rum starts with cane juice or molasses how is there anything in its dunder besides sugar or molasses? Apart from the odd unlucky bat, how do rotting fruits get in there? Do they throw all composting vegies and fruits in there?
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... heads.html here's the article. Says there's all sorts of things in the dunder pits
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
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Capn Jimbo
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Ah, yes the Lost Sanity myth reemerges...
This is the same guy who claims he can duplicate a 20 year spirit in about 6 days or less. The guy who also built wooden stills from oak (not DDL's green wood) - at great expense - on the theory that they'd produce a "richer" spirit (they didn't), and that later had to bulldoze them into firewood when instead, they quite naturally developed a fungal infection, which note was added to his whisky. The same guy who then built fanciful, crevice ridden replacement stills from sheet of copper that were hard to clean between batches, and that yes...
Believed that throwing a banana peel into his fermentation tanks would somehow replace the 30 years of Jamaica's dunder pits. I'm serious!
And last, who has left distilling almost altogether with his latest harebrained scheme - he has now "invented" what he calls the "Model 1" - a machine that he proposes to lease to distillers so that they can "age" their spirits to the equivalent of 20 years in yup, 6 days. Despite a flurry of releases, he has not identified a single one who is successfully using and promoting this Rube Goldberg creation.
This subject has been well covered here, included a whole raft of other bizarre fakokte schemes from loud rock music, to pulsating air pressure:
http://rumproject.com/rumforum//viewtopic.php?t=1684
This is the same guy who claims he can duplicate a 20 year spirit in about 6 days or less. The guy who also built wooden stills from oak (not DDL's green wood) - at great expense - on the theory that they'd produce a "richer" spirit (they didn't), and that later had to bulldoze them into firewood when instead, they quite naturally developed a fungal infection, which note was added to his whisky. The same guy who then built fanciful, crevice ridden replacement stills from sheet of copper that were hard to clean between batches, and that yes...
Believed that throwing a banana peel into his fermentation tanks would somehow replace the 30 years of Jamaica's dunder pits. I'm serious!
And last, who has left distilling almost altogether with his latest harebrained scheme - he has now "invented" what he calls the "Model 1" - a machine that he proposes to lease to distillers so that they can "age" their spirits to the equivalent of 20 years in yup, 6 days. Despite a flurry of releases, he has not identified a single one who is successfully using and promoting this Rube Goldberg creation.
This subject has been well covered here, included a whole raft of other bizarre fakokte schemes from loud rock music, to pulsating air pressure:
http://rumproject.com/rumforum//viewtopic.php?t=1684
I read this guys work. He doesn't quite make the claims you attribute to him (but it is close). He admits that his results are not exactly the same as what comes out of years of aging only that it gets quite far in that direction, and in only 6 days. But that doesn't mean everything he tries works either. Still I've had a lot of organic chemistry and so I understand both the principles and how he is measuring his results. Of course I've not tasted his product.
Meanwhile on this dunder pit thing in that article I think we are getting a second hand story, but if you think about it for a minute it makes no less sense than adultering rum after the fact. If bananna esther in the rum came from a dunder pit because there was fruit in it that would be more "natural" than flavoring added later on. Don't know, and can't say anything about this from experience but would love to learn more.
I still cannot get a handle on how much of the dunder pit material is used. A fermentation batch must be like 100 pounds of molasses or something in that ball park. How much dunder goes into that?
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Capn's Log: A competent counterpoint pretty much destroys these bizarre claims (none of which have ever been proven, used with any notable success commercially, nor sold, nor promoted anywhere. The counterpoint:
http://www.inwithbacchus.com/2015/04/of ... tions.html
Meanwhile on this dunder pit thing in that article I think we are getting a second hand story, but if you think about it for a minute it makes no less sense than adultering rum after the fact. If bananna esther in the rum came from a dunder pit because there was fruit in it that would be more "natural" than flavoring added later on. Don't know, and can't say anything about this from experience but would love to learn more.
I still cannot get a handle on how much of the dunder pit material is used. A fermentation batch must be like 100 pounds of molasses or something in that ball park. How much dunder goes into that?
*******
Capn's Log: A competent counterpoint pretty much destroys these bizarre claims (none of which have ever been proven, used with any notable success commercially, nor sold, nor promoted anywhere. The counterpoint:
http://www.inwithbacchus.com/2015/04/of ... tions.html
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
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schlimmerdurst
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"but if you think about it for a minute it makes no less sense than adultering rum after the fact. If bananna esther in the rum came from a dunder pit because there was fruit in it that would be more "natural" than flavoring added later on"
Actually, I see a difference if you add something after the destillation process in comparison to adding something to the mash. That's the point of using different mash sources! Otherwise, we could all just use vodka and add flavorings to get rum, whisky or tequila.
Actually, I see a difference if you add something after the destillation process in comparison to adding something to the mash. That's the point of using different mash sources! Otherwise, we could all just use vodka and add flavorings to get rum, whisky or tequila.
Yes, but the mash is still sugar juice or molasses so whatever the dunder adds is on top of that. In this case the extra esters would be very subtle. I'm guessing there wouldn't be much dunder compared to fresh mash. The thing about many rums is that so much *is* added after the fact and we all complain about it. Anything that comes from the dunder would be there "naturally".
But all of this is hypothetical. We have one article telling us that there's all sorts of things in Jamaican dunder pits, but unless someone goes down there, investigates, and corroborates or puts a lie to the story we are left only to speculate. Either that, or someone inside the industry responds to the story, but I suspect the real goings on with these steps is a closely held secret.
But all of this is hypothetical. We have one article telling us that there's all sorts of things in Jamaican dunder pits, but unless someone goes down there, investigates, and corroborates or puts a lie to the story we are left only to speculate. Either that, or someone inside the industry responds to the story, but I suspect the real goings on with these steps is a closely held secret.
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
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Capn Jimbo
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There is a huge difference...
,,, between adding sugar (or dunder, the product of the distillation of sugar based products) before distillation and after. When added before both are legal, to wit:
Both sugar and dunder qualify as by-products. As an example, all the material under §5.22 (f) Class 6; Rum can be distilled once, twice or in a column, the equivalent of many times, without limit. It is perfectly legal to redistill rum and still call it rum. Heads and tails are often redistilled with a new batch. And dunder is absolutely a byproduct, ie simply the leftover rum wash in the still after sufficient alcohol has been removed by distillation. Any reports that fruit or vegetables appear as regular or expected additions to the dunder pit are nothing more than frivolous rumours.
And to be fair, Lost Sanity's alleged tossing of a banana peel into their ferment is skirting the law, as I see it. While yeast is an aid to fermentation of allowable material (cane based only) a fackin banana peel is not.
Last, the addition of unlabeled sugar, glycerol, sherry wine, or artificial flavorings - to a finished rum and without properly labeling the rum as "flavored" (and naming the primary flavoring, eg "Sweetened Rum" - is illegal. That this adulteration is accomplished by subterfuge and/or poor or non-existent enforcement by the TTB is immaterial.
*******
The originator of this myth is the only source I know of that tries to claim that Jackfruit is added to the dunder pits or ferments of Jamaican rums. I engaged and directly challenged him/his post on another site long ago, to produce a citation and/or name the distillers so doing this; he failed to do so. The fact that this same old story is still circulating is frustrating.
It is a sad fact that once released to our beloved internet all manner of (mis)information thereby lives for fackin ever.
A discussion in depth:
http://rumproject.com/rumforum//viewtopic.php?t=1684
Honestly, this subject is now officially overdone, and really needs not to be beaten to death. Any who wish to believe in 6-day, loud music, underwater or pulsating pressure fast aging, or in rotten banana peel fermentation is free to do so. This particular banana has been well peeled, apparently eaten by the monkeys, certainly digested and soon to reemerge for additional, uh fermentation (assuming you can chase the flies away, lol...
,,, between adding sugar (or dunder, the product of the distillation of sugar based products) before distillation and after. When added before both are legal, to wit:
The keen eyed will notice the absence of banana peels.§5.22 (f) Class 6; “Rum” is an alcoholic distillate from the fermented juice of sugar cane, sugar cane syrup, sugar cane molasses, or other sugar cane by-products, produced at less than 190° proof in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to rum, and bottled at not less than 80° proof; and also includes mixtures solely of such distillates."
Both sugar and dunder qualify as by-products. As an example, all the material under §5.22 (f) Class 6; Rum can be distilled once, twice or in a column, the equivalent of many times, without limit. It is perfectly legal to redistill rum and still call it rum. Heads and tails are often redistilled with a new batch. And dunder is absolutely a byproduct, ie simply the leftover rum wash in the still after sufficient alcohol has been removed by distillation. Any reports that fruit or vegetables appear as regular or expected additions to the dunder pit are nothing more than frivolous rumours.
And to be fair, Lost Sanity's alleged tossing of a banana peel into their ferment is skirting the law, as I see it. While yeast is an aid to fermentation of allowable material (cane based only) a fackin banana peel is not.
Last, the addition of unlabeled sugar, glycerol, sherry wine, or artificial flavorings - to a finished rum and without properly labeling the rum as "flavored" (and naming the primary flavoring, eg "Sweetened Rum" - is illegal. That this adulteration is accomplished by subterfuge and/or poor or non-existent enforcement by the TTB is immaterial.
*******
The originator of this myth is the only source I know of that tries to claim that Jackfruit is added to the dunder pits or ferments of Jamaican rums. I engaged and directly challenged him/his post on another site long ago, to produce a citation and/or name the distillers so doing this; he failed to do so. The fact that this same old story is still circulating is frustrating.
It is a sad fact that once released to our beloved internet all manner of (mis)information thereby lives for fackin ever.
A discussion in depth:
http://rumproject.com/rumforum//viewtopic.php?t=1684
Honestly, this subject is now officially overdone, and really needs not to be beaten to death. Any who wish to believe in 6-day, loud music, underwater or pulsating pressure fast aging, or in rotten banana peel fermentation is free to do so. This particular banana has been well peeled, apparently eaten by the monkeys, certainly digested and soon to reemerge for additional, uh fermentation (assuming you can chase the flies away, lol...
Last edited by Capn Jimbo on Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Blade Rummer
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Capn Jimbo
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Nice tip Quine, thanks...
I'm familiar with Abraham's and his Youtube rum reviews from some ago - fun to watch, but not much more. Doesn't distinguish sweet, from sweetened or altered, loves the Zacapas and the Plantations, even Reserva Exclusiva. Ugh. The usual.
Still, I'm VERY interested in this bit of date as to the amount of dunder added to a new ferment. Twenty five percent seems an awful lot, particularly in that the pits are stinky ripe with wild yeasts as well; still, we'd surely like to learn more, as I have never seen anything regarding the actual amounts used. Any links to Abraham's claim?
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Addenda: after some reseach I believe that Abrahams must have been quoting the Wiki, which cites a single, vague and general chemistry of manufacture book published in 1860.
Muspratt, Sheridan; Horsford, Eben Norton (1860). Chemistry, Theoretical, Practical, and Analytical: As Applied and Relating to the Arts and Manufactures. W. Mackenzie. p. 107. Retrieved 27 February 2012.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-y0OAA ... &dq=dunder
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https://www.youtube.com/user/andross200
I'm familiar with Abraham's and his Youtube rum reviews from some ago - fun to watch, but not much more. Doesn't distinguish sweet, from sweetened or altered, loves the Zacapas and the Plantations, even Reserva Exclusiva. Ugh. The usual.
Still, I'm VERY interested in this bit of date as to the amount of dunder added to a new ferment. Twenty five percent seems an awful lot, particularly in that the pits are stinky ripe with wild yeasts as well; still, we'd surely like to learn more, as I have never seen anything regarding the actual amounts used. Any links to Abraham's claim?
*******
Addenda: after some reseach I believe that Abrahams must have been quoting the Wiki, which cites a single, vague and general chemistry of manufacture book published in 1860.
Muspratt, Sheridan; Horsford, Eben Norton (1860). Chemistry, Theoretical, Practical, and Analytical: As Applied and Relating to the Arts and Manufactures. W. Mackenzie. p. 107. Retrieved 27 February 2012.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-y0OAA ... &dq=dunder
*******
https://www.youtube.com/user/andross200
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Capn Jimbo
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It appears this estimate of dunder is unreliable...
...as it seems it orginated from an obscure general chemistry and engineering book from 1860, not at all relevent here.
. . . . . . .
. . . . . . .
This my friends, without better and more current resources is exactly why some of the "facts" thrown around the net add not to our understanding. With this in mind, I would ask all to please link their resources if at all possible. Carry on...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunder
...as it seems it orginated from an obscure general chemistry and engineering book from 1860, not at all relevent here.
. . . . . . .
. . . . . . .
This my friends, without better and more current resources is exactly why some of the "facts" thrown around the net add not to our understanding. With this in mind, I would ask all to please link their resources if at all possible. Carry on...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunder