What makes American whisky so dark? (Also, rum content)

[Hassouni]

Bourbon and rye produced in the US by law cannot have any additives. Yet even a 3 or 4 year old American whisky is a deep brown color, whereas we know that an unaltered rum or Scotch at even 10 years isn't that dark.

I know that bourbon and rye have to aged in new, charred, oak, while scotch often uses previously filled barrels, and of course for rum there are no rules at all. Does the new wood and new char make all the difference?

I'm also interested because of the Lost Spirits rum - I saw that Jimbo actually commented upon it on some blog, and a response to that comment produced this image:



I've seen mention elsewhere that their barrels are specially treated for "fast aging" or something. If they're honest about no flavoring and no coloring added, just like bourbon and rye, is it really all in the barrel?

[Capn Jimbo]

Good post...


The link referred to by Hass is here:

http://inuakena.com/spirit-reviews/rum- ... -navy-rum/

I've reviewed this website favorably in some regards, but scoring isn't one of them. Josh does his best work when he compares a group of similar spirits. He does his worst when scoring a review (very, very heavily in the 9's), and in failing to identify distiller hype. He means well.

I knew of this rum but didn't feel it was worth much of a mention. Now that it has been though...

This way over-hyped rum is by yet another micro-distiller who has bought the ADI (American Distilling Institute) line that it's possible to reduce years of aging to months. Of course, this is like money, er manna from Heaven to small distillers who simply can't afford to tie up large amounts of inventory for long and expensive years of aging. Up north, this distiller would have to count on at least 7 to 10 years before selling a drop.

What to do? What to do? On a hype-heavy Facebook page (the distiller does not yet have a real or informative website) this claim is made:

"New, sherry seasoned(?) American oak” (that has undergone an secret preparation of) “… controlled charring process incorporating heat, flame, and even special frequencies of light to break the compounds we want out fast.”

What's that smell? This is just plain moose droppings from a distiller who thinks the drinking public will swill anything that falls off the turnip truck. At the very same time, the distiller refuses to even discuss age, and no mention of age appears on the label. Ridiculous and reminds me of the Miami distiller who actually claims and promotes that his rums age faster because he plays heavy metal music in the warehouse. I'm fackin serious.

Believe me, there are no end to these claims. Of the whiskies, bourbon stands nearly alone in using new charred oak. The rest of the whisky world buys those used barrels. A very, very few use 12 times more expensive used sherry barrels. As far as this distiller goes, there is no such thing as a "new" sherry barrel - unless it means he bought a new mini oak barrel and soaked it in sherry for a week, and made sure to leave some sloshing around for some additional unlabelled flavoring. Most cheaters just pour some in the rum, and save the cooperage.

This is just another form of the ADI "new, small wood ages MUCH faster" line of crap, this time with the addition of a bottle of cheap sherry. It's endless. Those who believe the "microbarrel" line have microminds. Include me out...

[Hassouni]

Can we still get an answer on the color of American whisky?


By the way, Lost Spirits is not that new a distillery - is it not inconceivable that they've had a stock of this rum aging for several years?

[Capn Jimbo]

About whisky I bow to other more knowledgable members...



But to the question "...is it not inconceivable that they've had a stock of this rum aging for several years?", answer: no, not conceivable. Real age is almost always a sales bullet and appears proudly on the label. Some exceptions: new make, young or blends. Want to find out: write the distiller - IF you can find him. I couldn't. Also if your a fan of the dance, check out this tap dancing all of which work not to praise aging but to actually to almost minimize its importance. I dare any reader to find a stated aged in this windy and evasive statement:

http://spiritsjournal.klwines.com/klwin ... ekdom.html

The truth: I know of no rum that of honest age of say between 7 and 10 years old that isn't proud to say so. Any marketing monkey who failed to do so would be fired in a microsecond. Even a 3 or 4 year old rum would be claimed. When a very young, "fast aged" rum presents as dark mahogany, and particularly one that denies use of coloring, well...

Something is very, very wrong. Many single malts, like rum are aged in used bourbon barrels and even after 12 years in the barrel present as a nice straw to light amber color. Dark mahogany? Really? Driver, this is my stop...

[Hassouni]

Yeah, I mentioned the single malt thing in the first post. But scotch uses spent barrels most of the time, while bourbon doesn't, and gets a nice tea color in just a few years. Might not Lost Spirits be taking this to the extreme - heavy charring, sherry, and tiny barrels?

[Capn Jimbo]

If it were only so...


But it just isn't. Tea color yes, but absolutely not mahogany. Anything is possible, but even my 20 year Pappy Van Winkle is not a dark mahogany, not even close. If magically a rum could be "fast aged" - whatever the fack - to a dark mahogany, you'd be picking wood splinters out of your mouth. Chuck Cowdery (author "Straight Bourbon" and also an E-book "Small Barrels Produce Lousy Whisky") among others, all agree that small barrels can't work, especially for anything but a very short time.

That's a pipe dream, honestly. Again, here's why: wood indeed has wonderful effects and you can bet that any distiller who goes to the great expense of true aging for years will absolutely make his efforts known on the label with a hopefully honest age statement. There are three basis classifications of what wood contact does:

• Additive: the wood adds good flavors. Think vanillan.
  Subtractive: the wood fillters and smooths bad elements
  Interactive: the components of the rum and of the wood chemically interact to form new, hopefully positive elements.

The problem: these are not linear, nor do they happen at the same time. Some of the early additive elements later react with some of the interactive products. Some things happen quickly, some take years. "Fast" aging is simply the ADI's and the small distiller's wet dream, but simply can't and doesn't replace hard earned and very expensive aging. But their marketing departments sure want you to think so.

Such is life. But don't believe me, write the distiller and ask him these:

1. What are your new barrels made of?
2. What size are the barrels and how are they prepared? Charred? Toasted? To what level, what grade?
3. How are these new barrels sherried? Before or after charring? For how long? And why?
4. Do all of the additive, subtractive and interactive occur at the same time and at the same rate? Explain how a process that normally takes a good 10 or 12 years be compressed, and by how much?
5. How do you account for the very dark color of this rum?

And last:

6. How long in actual months or years is your rum actually aged?

Good luck. I couldn't find him, but will keep trying. I hope you succeed, and that he'll answer you.

[Capn Jimbo]

FWIW...


Hass, I wish I could speak with more authority in re bourbon, but I can't. I do keep an email relationship with Chuck Cowdery (see above) so I'll try to see if I can ask the question. Check this quote his book "Straight Bourbon":

"Aged whisky (Bourbon) gets its reddish-brown color and much of its flavor from the new charred oak barrel. Although two years of aging is the legal minimum, four to six years is typical for a standard bourbon or rye... Younger whiskys (under four years) are required to label their age".

.

I'd venture to say that our distillers "fast aging" with slabs of wood is far less than four years, especially as he is scrupulous in avoiding any statement of age whatever (see link in previous post). Even the words "months" or "years" aren't used. Red flag time, don't you agree? In the meanwhile, readers may be interested in visiting the Lost Spirits site, which is relatively information free:

www.lostspirits.net/

Here's the bottle, this time showing the contents:



This is the "dark mahogany" described elsewhere, no question about that, it reminds me of the heavily colored Zaya or some of the "dark" or faux "Navy" rums. On the website as much as the distiller is willing to share are a few marketing bullets designed to sound sophisticated or unique:

• Grade A Molasses
  Wild Bacteria Banana Dunder
  Oloroso Sherry Seasoned Virgin American Oak (new)
  Photocatalytically "Charred" New American Oak Slabs

The molasses is a good one, used also by the remarkable Phil Prichard. Monkeying around with an overripe banana into the ferment is one thing; calling it "dunder" is quite another; this is NOT dunder as we know it. The notion of sherry seasoned NEW oak is not at all the same as purchasing a very expensive barrel actually used to age sherry for many, many years. What is it instead? Perhaps a way of introducing actual (and unlabelled) sherry into the rum? It is not even clear how these barrels are charred, but the distiller wants us to buy that by also exposing them to a particular light somehow - in mere minutes - replaces the chemical processes that take years and years in expensive wood aging.

Groundbreaking claims like these require real transparency, not just a rehash of Distilling 101 tweaked to include some marketing bullets.

You may also find it interesting that there was another American distiller - Daniel of Texas - who also tried to replace wood aging by introducing slabs or staves of various woods (including oak) into the barrels. Home distillers have also tried this. The notion - unsuccessful - was that by increasing the area of exposure that somehow, some way the spirit contained would age "faster". This was and remains...

Hogwash. See previous post above re why.

To be fair, very heavy charring will introduce some color. This was used by Mount Gay's "Black Barrel" in an attempt to finish a young rum in heavily charred barrels - but just for a short time - to smooth it out. It didn't work. Keep in mind that heavy charring destroys wood to create a layer of filtering carbon. Toasting does not.


Flat Ass Bottom Line

Until this distiller puts up a proper website and/or is more forthcoming about how this extremely dark rum can be produced with "fast" aging - and actually stating its real age - it's fair to question a new rum by this new distiller using amazing new and untested methods to ferment, distill, season and "fast age" such a rum.

We need to peel his banana...

[Hassouni]

Yeah, what the hell is phytocatalytic charring anyway...

[Dai]

Yes I would hazard a guess that it would be down to brand new barrels and charring that gives Bourbon it's colour. If there are no additives and most Bourbon's show a similar colour for a similar age (say 8 year old) then the barrels and charring must be playing a good part in it.

Contrast this to a Mezan rum which we know is additive free and notice the colour difference compared to Bourbon.

http://www.masterofmalt.com/distillerie ... distillery

http://www.masterofmalt.com/whiskies/sm ... n-whiskey/

Another thing that may play a role is that grain may take on a colour more than Molasses when aged. The reaction of the raw distillate may play a role in the colour characteristics. All this is a guess on my part but I'd say a good one with the absence of any colouring agent.

[Uisge]

The char used in bourbon barrels most certainly does add to the coloring of bourbon.

Independent Stave Company or ISC has these images showing the 4 different levels of char used, #1-#4, the last being "Alligator" char. The last level of char exposes more surface area for the spirit to mingle with then the previous 3 levels.



Also the range of temperatures those barrels experience is part of what affects the color of the distillate as it gets drawn into and out of the wood over time.

Here's just a quick visual using Buffalo Trace product as an example:

Here's the new make spirit, or "white dog" as the label suggests.


And here is that same product, albeit aged about 8 years, now called bourbon.


Other than exposure to the wood staves that make up the barrel, the liquid is the same mash distillate...and I have to say the white dog is tasty, since I was able to sample it at the distillery almost 2 years ago.

[Capn Jimbo]

Thanks U-man for the post...


Two things should jump out. First, that this bourbon was aged for a labelled 8 years, and second, that it is far from the "dark mahogany" of this rum, as observed elsewhere and pictured above. This distiller claims to "fast age" this rum but has avoided any mention of the actual age of this spirit. He doesn't even use the words "months" or "years". His avoidance smacks of the small distillers who claim to achieve years of aging in mere months.

I have now managed to ask this distiller - twice - for a simple answer: "How old is this rum in months and years?". He has scrupulously avoided this question.

I can only assume this means months. For a rum to achieve a deep mahogany color in that brief time confims only that he used a lot of slabs - and that my friends has nothing to do with real aging. When a distiller makes groundbreaking claims, but when questioned hides behind a blizzard of confuscating and general Distillling 101 jargon and ends by specifically avoiding providing something as simple as the size of the barrel and the actual time in it - well if it walks like a duck...

Naw, it's a turkey and I'm done with this one. The claim of "fast aging" is not a new one. No one has ever really achieved it. See Cowdery's book "Small Barrels Make Lousy Whiskey". The one word that comes to my mind:

Evasive. And for a reason. This distiller knows how really young this spirit is but doesn't want to admit it.

[Winston]

New barrels will impart drastically more color into spirit than used. Think of it like brewing tea. If you reuse a bag a second time, you have to steep it nearly twice as long to get a comparable amount of color and flavor from the leaves. Hence why you will find Scottish malt whiskies of a much light shade than American whiskies.

[Winston]

Oh, also, I have had the Lost Spirits rum and I really like it. Can't guarantee the rest of you will feel the same, but I rather enjoyed drinking it in NOLA this year.