A rare and extremely important interview performed by our own Cyril (of durhum.com) with Luca Gargano of Velier.
FWIW, Richard Seale calls Luca one of the four great mentors that helped shape his life. These two interviews are NOT to be missed - you simply must read them. A huge thanks to Cyril for his many contributions to pure rhum...
I'll be back later with my own comments...
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Part One:
http://durhum.com/EN/LucaGargano_en.html
Part Two:
http://durhum.com/EN/LucaGargano_en2.html
Brilliant Interview: with Luca Gargano of Velier
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Capn Jimbo
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The Black Tot
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Blade Rummer
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Super interesting read, I would give anything to be able to get my hands on Velier's DDL bottlings, seems like it's the only way to get any pure rum out of DDL, unless I'm mistaken.
A few quotes I found interesting :
A few quotes I found interesting :
Now with the sugar-genie out of the bottle, it's becoming more and more obvious that we the consumers have in fact been lied to. Maybe if Velier becomes more and more popular DDL will see some commercial benefit in releasing some unaltered rum.Today you have to produced rum quickly, and quality has no place here. There is a lot of interest into the rum's business these days, and when you think there's no law around it, its really dangerous for consumers. The situation is really complex and many producers lie on their labels, about the age, the rum itself, and then people lose confidence into rums and That is really dangerous.
Wait, so there is an alternate world where Barbancourt rum is even better??? I would certainly pay more for a smaller-batch Barbancourt rum, especially since they are already so affordable.There's a lot of potential out there, if only Barbancourt had not destroyed its stills ... (note: they now use columns to produce their rums.). There are good things but they distill to 93% alcohol this is absurd. They are many to do the same. Im just saying this because they have one of the finest aging cellars in the world, with very nice and old barrels, but now they produce a product that has lost its personality.
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The Black Tot
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I'm not sure Velier is suffering from a lack of popularity problem. They sell out extremely fast, and aren't cheap.Blade Rummer wrote: Now with the sugar-genie out of the bottle, it's becoming more and more obvious that we the consumers have in fact been lied to. Maybe if Velier becomes more and more popular DDL will see some commercial benefit in releasing some unaltered rum.
I don't think DDL wants to be in the small volume boutique business. They are clearly happy with the relationships they have with smaller companies for that side of things.
In the Facebook group for rum there's been some funny discussions on Demerara rum, and people have been talking about rums like Watson's, OVD, Skipper's etc. as examples of Demerara. I honestly think these are all just bogus brands today - they use a very old trade mark and brand, often from 19th century, but the product today has NOTHING to do with quality Demerara rum, or even good rum, be it from where ever. Cheapest bulk blended & caramellized to obscurity...Even El Dorado's are a poor example of Demerara rums in all honesty, because they are so sugared etc. The 21yo is a DECENT rum.
If you taste the Velier or Cadenhead Demerara rums, you will realize what I am talking about. The difference is staggering. What Signore Gargano is speaking of is SO TRUE - I wish every rum hobbyist out there could taste the pure stuff from distilleries, in an unadulterated way. THAT is rum...and I am not surprised he is excited about it.
If you taste the Velier or Cadenhead Demerara rums, you will realize what I am talking about. The difference is staggering. What Signore Gargano is speaking of is SO TRUE - I wish every rum hobbyist out there could taste the pure stuff from distilleries, in an unadulterated way. THAT is rum...and I am not surprised he is excited about it.
Velier like cadenhead does have limited US offerings available to those who seek them out. The Capovilla line is readily available to those who would like it. While I have not opened the liberation rum (2010 release) they also offer a white offering called Capovilla Pmg or "Rhum Rhum" among several descriptors which is quite intense at 122 proof and readily available in the US. I have not seen the 2013 release yet.
http://www.leduwines.com/sku000000036295.html
http://www.leduwines.com/sku000000036295.html
JaRiMI,
I wonder how DDL sees the increase in demand/popularity and price for the Velier products.
Will it make them take the single cask/casks route?
Will they move them to follow the Velier route?
I hope they have kept many good casks stored and not used all for blending..
Captain,
NAS should something that must discussed in the RUM world. What are the consumers buying when they are spending money for "premium" NAS rums?
I wonder how DDL sees the increase in demand/popularity and price for the Velier products.
Will it make them take the single cask/casks route?
Will they move them to follow the Velier route?
I hope they have kept many good casks stored and not used all for blending..
Captain,
NAS should something that must discussed in the RUM world. What are the consumers buying when they are spending money for "premium" NAS rums?
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Capn Jimbo
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AK, as many here are aware NAS represents the latest degradation of "rum", that not surprisingly is accompanied by adulteration with sugar and other artificial flavoring. These are the underlying factors:
1. First and foremost the massive subsidies to the Big Three (Diageo, Fortune, and Bacardi. We are talking many billions of dollars - such that these behemoths are as much as getting paid to produce rum.
2. These three are so voracious that provenance means nothing, nor does origin, nor does age. These are mass produced industrial "rums" distilled to within a pubic hair of vodka, then tweaked to be palatable.
3. These young tweaked rums may get a touch of actual rum or not, but in any case are then "premiumized" - with made up marketing stories, and premium packaging. The only thing that's pure about them is profit.
AK, in truth age statements were never very believable in the first place, and since no rum has ever been bonded (under federal supervision), the age statements are of the "trust us" variety. Right. The industry is apparently aware that their claims are silly, so instead the offerings are now NAS, and sold instead on the made up marketing and premiumized presentations.
Not to mention a couple of cooperative reviewers. That's what you're buying. The answer is to buy known pure rums as detailed in this lovely thread.
1. First and foremost the massive subsidies to the Big Three (Diageo, Fortune, and Bacardi. We are talking many billions of dollars - such that these behemoths are as much as getting paid to produce rum.
2. These three are so voracious that provenance means nothing, nor does origin, nor does age. These are mass produced industrial "rums" distilled to within a pubic hair of vodka, then tweaked to be palatable.
3. These young tweaked rums may get a touch of actual rum or not, but in any case are then "premiumized" - with made up marketing stories, and premium packaging. The only thing that's pure about them is profit.
AK, in truth age statements were never very believable in the first place, and since no rum has ever been bonded (under federal supervision), the age statements are of the "trust us" variety. Right. The industry is apparently aware that their claims are silly, so instead the offerings are now NAS, and sold instead on the made up marketing and premiumized presentations.
Not to mention a couple of cooperative reviewers. That's what you're buying. The answer is to buy known pure rums as detailed in this lovely thread.
In rum, we already have "masked NAS" - i.e. bottlings where the distiller simply lies on the age statement (as even Mr. Gargano also states in the interview).
All in all, all the nonsense, lies, spicing (and selling this as "pure rum" in super premium category)...it all makes it damn hard for the honest rum distillers and bottlers.
Most of the current Caribbean rum business lives on bulk rum sales I think. They never understood the super premium/single cask category - they sell by hundreds of thousands of gallons, if not millions. To big brands like Bacardi, Captain Morgan, and others. It was not until very late 90s most started even to see the benefit of having their own brand available internationally - and the big brands of course liked it that way, and no doubt have made it difficult for single distilleries to proceed with their own brand products. Last I visited Angostura was in 2000, and through the buyout of Bacardi by CL Financial, they were for the first time able to push their own brands internationally, not just in Trinidad. It took years for these products to penetrate markets well.
As is, I doubt DL Distillers would have the faintest clue on why on earth they should use their stocks and release fabulous, non-sugared rums to the market. After all, if you look at even most of the rum pages out there, people are singing the virtues of El Dorado everywhere. So it MUST be good, right? Let the rum geeks think otherwise, business is good man...Who cares? And turning a big ship around is a slow process...and first someone would need to have the courage to make this decision.
No doubt it would shock the current sweet-tooth crowd out there, and sales would temporarily plummet. Who wants to risk this just in a world where economic success if measured in quartals? No one.
I may be off here as my memories of Trinidad are old, but what do you think rich buggers drank there - local rum? Nope. They drank Foreign whisky. For whisky was the sign of success, money no problem, plenty blue money (100TT$ note is blue)to splash for good, foreign Scotch. In Philippines rum sells, but again the rich folk buy tequila, Spanish brandy, Cognac or Whisky. Rum is an underrated thing - nowhere more so than at its home. I told once people there how single cask rums could sell for hundreds of TT$ a bottle - they all thought I gone mad mad mad.
Bulk man bulk. Is good, a steady stream of income. Especially for those capable of producing ten of millions of litres. Why do you think much of the Caribbean (and South America) ran with the multi-column stills, capable of this level of production? If you sell for 10 $ / litre, you make less spirit and maybe ok money. When you make 50 million litres annually, you sell for 50c/litre and the quantity supplies good income from a quickly, cheaply made product.
It has worked so far since very few have been really concerned on taste, quality etc. I think. I have to say it, but even in whisky, the sales of premium malt whisky is peanuts when compared to all the sales of blended brands. And at least 80% of people on this planet drink blended.
Anyways, don't take my word for it, I never worked for rum industry. But I think the truth is not far from this sadly.
All in all, all the nonsense, lies, spicing (and selling this as "pure rum" in super premium category)...it all makes it damn hard for the honest rum distillers and bottlers.
Most of the current Caribbean rum business lives on bulk rum sales I think. They never understood the super premium/single cask category - they sell by hundreds of thousands of gallons, if not millions. To big brands like Bacardi, Captain Morgan, and others. It was not until very late 90s most started even to see the benefit of having their own brand available internationally - and the big brands of course liked it that way, and no doubt have made it difficult for single distilleries to proceed with their own brand products. Last I visited Angostura was in 2000, and through the buyout of Bacardi by CL Financial, they were for the first time able to push their own brands internationally, not just in Trinidad. It took years for these products to penetrate markets well.
As is, I doubt DL Distillers would have the faintest clue on why on earth they should use their stocks and release fabulous, non-sugared rums to the market. After all, if you look at even most of the rum pages out there, people are singing the virtues of El Dorado everywhere. So it MUST be good, right? Let the rum geeks think otherwise, business is good man...Who cares? And turning a big ship around is a slow process...and first someone would need to have the courage to make this decision.
No doubt it would shock the current sweet-tooth crowd out there, and sales would temporarily plummet. Who wants to risk this just in a world where economic success if measured in quartals? No one.
I may be off here as my memories of Trinidad are old, but what do you think rich buggers drank there - local rum? Nope. They drank Foreign whisky. For whisky was the sign of success, money no problem, plenty blue money (100TT$ note is blue)to splash for good, foreign Scotch. In Philippines rum sells, but again the rich folk buy tequila, Spanish brandy, Cognac or Whisky. Rum is an underrated thing - nowhere more so than at its home. I told once people there how single cask rums could sell for hundreds of TT$ a bottle - they all thought I gone mad mad mad.
Bulk man bulk. Is good, a steady stream of income. Especially for those capable of producing ten of millions of litres. Why do you think much of the Caribbean (and South America) ran with the multi-column stills, capable of this level of production? If you sell for 10 $ / litre, you make less spirit and maybe ok money. When you make 50 million litres annually, you sell for 50c/litre and the quantity supplies good income from a quickly, cheaply made product.
It has worked so far since very few have been really concerned on taste, quality etc. I think. I have to say it, but even in whisky, the sales of premium malt whisky is peanuts when compared to all the sales of blended brands. And at least 80% of people on this planet drink blended.
Anyways, don't take my word for it, I never worked for rum industry. But I think the truth is not far from this sadly.
I am somehow seeing (and hoping) that things are changing. I can see that:
-There are many reviewers who review decent rums.
-The demand for these products is out there. As Cyril mentioned the Velier products are selling out (and at increasing prices sadly).
-There are many releases from independent bottlers. If you are looking for Caroni from the late 90s you have many options out there.
-As Cpt has mentioned there are distilleries out there who are focusing on real rum.
And obviously the discussion about sugar (have seen this in other forums as well) is making buyers think what they are buying.
DDL did release some "single barrel" bottles. Not sure if this was this an effort to try this market.
I think there is space for single cask releases alongside with bulk. Diageo does this in whisky, so surely this must be something that DDL might be looking as well.
btw, irrelevant but cyril's article on Jamaican rum is also a very good read.
http://durhum.com/le-rhum-jamaicain/
-There are many reviewers who review decent rums.
-The demand for these products is out there. As Cyril mentioned the Velier products are selling out (and at increasing prices sadly).
-There are many releases from independent bottlers. If you are looking for Caroni from the late 90s you have many options out there.
-As Cpt has mentioned there are distilleries out there who are focusing on real rum.
And obviously the discussion about sugar (have seen this in other forums as well) is making buyers think what they are buying.
DDL did release some "single barrel" bottles. Not sure if this was this an effort to try this market.
I think there is space for single cask releases alongside with bulk. Diageo does this in whisky, so surely this must be something that DDL might be looking as well.
btw, irrelevant but cyril's article on Jamaican rum is also a very good read.
http://durhum.com/le-rhum-jamaicain/
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The Black Tot
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Good point. Yes, they did.AK9 wrote: DDL did release some "single barrel" bottles. Not sure if this was this an effort to try this market.
Unfortunately they missed the marque, har har (I'm here all week, folks).
They filtered them and watered them down for the first part, then they batched them instead of releasing them as single barrel (This is from memory, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think those bottles were more "single still" than they were single barrel).
I think had they released at barrel proof these bottles would have had a good reception. As such, they languished on shelves.
As I said above, they don't really need to release a premium single barrel program - they've got Gargano for that. They are the same warehouses.