American IB dept - Smooth Ambler Revelation rum

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Hassouni
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Post by Hassouni »

By the way, I am within a couple hour drive of them (presumably, they're not that deep in WV). My friend is opening a distillery in DC and wants to visit as many local distillers as he can. I might be able to visit SA sometime in the next few weeks and can ask as many questions as the forum wants.
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Capn Jimbo
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

Key points:

1. Mama likes the rum, and if made in Jamaica, it can be assumed to be relatively pure and complex in any case. It can be assumed to be classically made with a pot still and double thumpers. Assumed being the key word.

2. "Distilled in 1990" says nothing about it's age. Further, the rep (and a retailer in New York) are publishing the sources as distilled by Appleton in 1990 and Monymusk in 1980.

3. The producer is VERY forthcoming with detail on his many sourced bourbons and ryes, but is practically silent in re the rum.

4. The TTB makes no effort whatever to check or verify age statements. They assume they are correct. Hell, they don't even check for sugar, and decided to let Ron Matusalem slide. They don't verify source.

5. The other big rum independents have no issue whatever with providing tons of detail, a very good thing that most afficianados seek, if not demand. The Demeraran issues love to detail even which of the old stills were used. This kind of detail sells expensive rum.

Even though we should not be comparing whisky with rum, and/or his blends with a single source rum, let's discuss John Glaser. I happen to love his Great King Street Artisan Blend, and from his website:
John Glaser's Website re Great King Street

"We believe in transparency. These days, more and more people are interested to know what is in their whisky. Here is a breakdown of the whisky components of Artist's Blend.

WHISKY (Spirit Character)
A Lowland Grain Whisky (fruity/perfumed) 46%
B Northern Highland Single Malt (malty/fruity) 28%
C Northern Highland Single Malt (grassy/perfumed) 17%
D Speyside Single Malt (meaty) 9%

And...

Here is a breakdown of the wood components of Artist's Blend.
WOOD (Flavour Impact)
1 First Fill American Oak Barrel (vanilla) 66%
2 New French Oak Finish {New-Headed Barrel} 26%
(Grilled Marshmallow, toastiness, roasted coffee)
3 First Fill Sherry Butt (wine, dried fruits) 8%"
Now that is detail, with Glaser even addressing why he used different cooperage. Amazing. To me the problem is the alleged rep - who hopefully does NOT work for the producer. He/she seems to be shooting his mouth off about facts that the producer hasn't addressed. Why? Why else? - to install the line, and to sell it. A 28 year old rum from Appleton and Monymusk for $60 - $70? Run, don't walk to buy that baby!

That is odd. If a sales point is true enough that the rep(s) are pitching them, they belong on the website and label. Does the producer not know these facts? Ashamed of them? Doesn't realize that such transparency is valued by buyers and sells product? That can't be. However, now the word is out and I suspect the producer - who has been very forthcoming about his sourced bourbons and ryes, their ages and cooperage, should now address the details of this rum.

I do care, and I believe he does as well...
Last edited by Capn Jimbo on Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
edgarallanpoe
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Post by edgarallanpoe »

Good points by all. It boils down to this for me....

Does the taste warrant the price. IMHO the answer is yes...and no. Is it fantastic rum? yes.
Would I spend $55 and drive an hour each way to get it again? Maybe. The only hesitation I have is this...

I like Smith and Cross a little more. Smith and Cross is $28 here and is readily available by me. So IMHO the bang for the buck king of rums for me is still Smith and Cross.

It may be unfair for me to compare the two as they are different rums. But that doesn't concern me. Oh and one more thing...I made a split base daiquiri with the Revelation and Smith and Cross. rofl It was unreal...one of the best drinks I have ever had.

Feel free to ridicule me endlessly for using those rums as mixers. lol
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Capn Jimbo
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

Eddie, no one is going to make fun of you for mixing the fine rums. After all, Vic Bergeron of Trader Vic's and Donn Beach of Don the Beachcomber's - the fathers of Tiki and creative rum drinks - were famous for seeking out and using the very finest and long aged rums for their drinks. They rightfully felt that better rum made a better drink.

Example: Vic's Mai Tai used a 17 year old Jamaican rum. You are in good company. If anyone doesn't believe this, try making a Pusser's Painkiller using another rum. It's not even close.

E, you also raise a point long held here, which is that older is not necessarily better. If there is a "sweet spot" for rums its in the area of about 7 years. Think of Phil Prichard's Fine Rum which is years younger than that. Also realize that it has often been held that a year in the tropics is like two or three years in say Scotland. Thus a seven year rum might be compared to a very pricey 20 year old single malt.

Personally, I believe than any rum much older than 15 years is really pushing the limits. Fortunately most distillers lie about the age, which can't be confirmed anyway, especially since not one rum has ever been bonded.

Such is life. Stay tuned for the producer's response to our questions. Hass, on page 1 of this thread you will find a copy of the emailed questions sent to the sales manager.
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Post by edgarallanpoe »

Eddie, no one is going to make fun of you for mixing the fine rums.
Oh, I know that. I make those comments with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek.
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Post by Winston »

FWIW, John Little and John Foster are friends of mine and are genuinely very honest, forthcoming people. Now, that being said, I don't know the specifics of their rum (other than knowing the flavor well from enjoying it with them), but I can say with confidence that they do not intend to mislead or deceive anyone. Their whole business of selling sourced whisky was built upon honest marketing, which has earned their respect in a lot of whisky enthusiast communities. It would be really hard for me to believe that they have somehow pulled a fast one on anyone because that's just not who they are or what they do. As it sometimes happens with sourced products, they could potentially be in some sort of NDA, but I don't know for sure. Also, they probably don't put the "selling points" of the rum on the website because they are limited runs and (potentially) are not the same mixture from batch to batch.
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Capn Jimbo
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

Right you are Winston.

I hope I have made clear that the producer has been quite open and informative regarding his sourced whiskys and bourbons, and that I believe he will likewise be to honest questions posed about this mysterious Jamaican sourced rum.

I do hope he will follow the lead of Cadenhead, Berry, Bristol, Murray McDavid, Duncan Taylor, Caroni, Velier, Samaroli, et al. In general, detail and transparency are king. The more data, the more we all like and respect them.

It is sad indeed that the industry is moving toward NAS, cheapened and or modified blends intended to increase profits and protect stocks. Even the availability - or lack thereof - of wood is becoming a problem as noted by Jim Murray in his latest 2015 Whisky Bible, and I quote:
"Kentucky distillers are also shaving costs and the degree of seasoning carried out on the virgin oak before being turned into barrels has been shortened. And that means blenders are finding strange things have been happening to some of their third fill casks which are no longer the safe, trustworthy, semi-neutral receptacles they have been for the last 50 years."
Murray also point out that key components (example Cambus and others for scotch blends) have been closed (Cambus was sold for real estate development!). Foster himself (SA) has noted these kind of source and wood issues with his MGP sourced bourbon and rye.

I would disagree though about changing stocks making descriptions difficult. Since these are small runs, so are the printing jobs, not to mention that changing information is exactly what producer websites - just like this forum - are for. Descriptions can be put up in ten minutes, and labels can link the website for more detail.

Simple. But no worries, I'm confident we'll be hearing more soon about this promising rum.
Hassouni
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Post by Hassouni »

Does Samaroli say what distilleries/stills they get their stuff from? I've just seen it as "Demerara Dark", "Caribbean" etc.

Let's also remember Blackadder doesn't specify which distilleries their malts come from.
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Post by Winston »

I just spoke to John Little and he confirmed that they are under NDA for the rum sources. While the provenance of the distillates would indeed be a good selling point, they are not allowed to officially disclose them.

He also told me that he's working on a new version of the same rum with some interesting cask finishing. I'll let him report on that whenever he makes it to the forum :)
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Capn Jimbo
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

Winston wrote:I just spoke to John Little and he confirmed that they are under NDA for the rum sources. While the provenance of the distillates would indeed be a good selling point, they are not allowed to officially disclose them.
Smooth Ambler has registered and will be approved pending an answer to our email (page 1 of this thread). FWIW, "NDA" I believe refers to a Non-Disclosure Agreement, fair enough. Still there should be no restriction on stating age, process and the like. As an example, note the lush and informative description of Great King Street as posted by John Glaser on the Compass Box site but without naming the exact sources. It can be done.

See Glaser's description quoted eight posts above, by moi.

Last, if there is an NDA that prevents disclosure of the distiller, how is it that their rep(s) seem to have disclosed both Appleton and Monymusk as the distillers, to the extent that at least one national retailer is openly advertising these allegedly private sources?
"After coming across two old stocks of rum from two of the top distilleries in the Caribbean, John Little knew he couldn't let them pass through his fingertips. Instead, he bought them both, blended them together, and created one of the best rums we've had in years. The two rums both hail from Jamaica. The "younger" is a 1990 distilled Appleton and the older is the rarely seen Moneymusk from the 1980s."
NDA? Really? Or is this guerrilla marketing by innuendo and plausible deniability?

I'm not big on communicating with them via middlemen, and do hope they will extend the courtesy of an answer to our well intentioned and respectful email, at which point I hope they will participate via this forum.




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The Artful Drinker
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John Little's Email

Post by The Artful Drinker »

Featured below is the complete text from John Little addressing Jimbo's email to us. Apparently, it was not received by CJ, or at least not posted here, and it seemed prudent to me to post it now and try and clear the air.

I will answer with complete honesty any further questions any of you have about our Revelation Rum, unless one of the two following circumstances keeps me from it:

1. I just don't know, in which case I'll say so.
2. Our non-disclosure agreement prohibits me from doing so.

We consider both the tone of Jimbo's jaunty email to us, and his implication on this forum and elsewhere that we are disingenuous hucksters, to be presumptuous, rude, over the line, and unwarranted.

That said, I'm an open book and will engage any and all of you on behalf of our rum, and in defense of our integrity.

JF


From: John Little <jlittle@smoothambler.com>
Subject: Fwd: Your Revelation Rum
Date: October 26, 2015 at 9:37:57 AM EDT
To: capnjimbo@hotmail.com

Hello Capn Jimbo,

It’s been a while since I’ve replied to an email where someone started out the relationship by basically calling us liars. While I usually stand behind the statement “Never argue with someone that buys ink by the barrel”, I think the tone of your email, and of your forum posts, is pretty tough. You take multiple “digs" at our product quality and our integrity, which is completely unwarranted, in my opinion.

I haven’t heard of your forum before, but a quick Google search led me to the post regarding Revelation Rum. I’m not sure what made you think we are trying to lie to people or deceive them, but let me clear the air. While I can’t give you all of the answers you are looking for due to trademark/contractual obligations/NDA, I can say that our label is accurate. Distillate made and laid down in 1990, and dumped from barrels in the spring of 2014, is the youngest distillate in the blend. I have certified copies of all of the necessary documents and I’d bet a TTB Audit, or any other independent audit, would find that to be true as well.

Regarding our integrity, let me offer a few points:
1. I’m not sure there’s a NDP bourbon or American Whiskey on the market that has a label any more open and honest than our Contradiction label.
2. Anyone that comes to tour our distillery is open to take pictures and ask questions about nearly everything on our property (recipes the exception), including our barrels from MGPI (actually labeled Seagram’s) and to see how we both produce our own new make and blend our sourced spirits.
3. Here on site, or on the road, we are constantly telling people how we secure Old Scout and giving credit to those that did the “heavy lifting” of distilling the product.
4. I firmly believe we are the defining example of integrity in the NDP (technically, we are a producer as well) market. It’s nice to see that many of the people commenting on the post also believe this to be true.


Here are the answers to your questions:

1. Who is/are the distillers?I can’t say due to contractual/trademark/NDA issues. I think you can tell from our sourced whiskey offerings, we are as open and honest as we can possibly be while still maintaining the integrity of our contractual obligations. If I could say, I’d be happy to put that in writing. I too believe more detail would help sell the product.
2. When and where distilled?It was distilled at two different Jamaican distilleries. One is a extra light column still rum laid down in 1990. The second is a light pot still rum from 1985.
3. Cooperage and aging? First fill, etc. Ex-bourbon, etc.Ex-bourbon casks.
4. Actual age of the youngest distillate in the bottle?23 years old. Laid down at the end of 1990 and dumped in spring of 2014.
5. If a blend, please describe.It’s a blend of approximately 75% 1990 light column rum and 25% 1985 pot still rum.
6. How shipped, original barrel, or container?Shipped to us in bulk but I have images of the barrels prior to dumping. At their age, and due to some other issues, we decided bulk was the best option.
6. How filtered? Colored? Added sugar or flavorings?No coloring, sugar, or other additives are in the spirit. It’s blended together here on site in WV to our preferred ratios, filtered through a small paper filter (just enough to remove the bits of the barrel), and diluted to bottling strength. No chill filtration either. As you and other posters noted, it’s very light in color. It spent a large part of it’s life aging in a cold climate and I’m sure that greatly affected the color of the spirit, and possibly the flavor, as well.
7. How and where bottled?
It’s still in bulk, here on site. We bottle as we needed to meet demand. We originally put 1990 on the label instead of 23 years because we thought it was cool. I could see how someone in 2015 might think this is 24-25 YO versus 23 YO but that was never intended to deceive, it was merely an aesthetic decision that, in hind-sight, might have been more confusing than not.

We are also working on some cask finish experiments, including a fresh-bourbon cask and a fresh-rye cask finish. The rye is very unique, in my opinion. We basically took the barrel strength rum blend, reduced it to 120 proof, and filled 6 rye casks. It’s been in those barrels about 7 months now and is close to being ready to bottle.

In addition, this rum was a one-time deal. We don’t make rum and don’t have any connection to buy more product that is this mature. As with Old Scout, we always think of our sourced spirits business as “whiskey antiquing”. When we find something great, we want to buy it and bottle it and to bring it to the public. We try to bring the consumer unique, interesting products, and to do that with honesty and integrity. Revelation Rum is no different….and it fits both of those goals.

How about we start over?
Last edited by The Artful Drinker on Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
mamajuana
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Post by mamajuana »

Hello, welcome to the forums and thanks for backing up such a great product. The rum speaks for itself one of the best most affordable American releases in a long time. Keep up the great work and find us more great rums!

I had assumed based on the coloring and comparing it a 25 year old single barrel 1986 monymusk aged in the UK, that this could have been aged in Europe but I did not want to initially toss that out there.

Make sure to sign me up for two bottles each of the new cask finished rums.
The Artful Drinker
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Post by The Artful Drinker »

As John said, we believe it spent a fair amount of time in the barrels somewhere other than Jamaica. So you're suspicion about aging in Europe, or in an environment similar to it, is understandable.
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Post by mamajuana »

These new cask finished expressions have me rather excited. You say "Fresh cask finish" what does that mean? Are these to be released at 99 proof for certain or could we see a 60% cask strength release? What is the estimated time frame left on the double aging? Most importantly how do I make sure to get some, as it sounds like a very limited amount of Barrels and I'm not holding my breath Western NY will see any.
The Artful Drinker
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Post by The Artful Drinker »

By fresh, JL means that the rum is going into recently emptied bourbon and rye barrels. As opposed to refilling barrels that have sat empty for a long period.

I expect we will bottle the cask finishes at the same proof as regular Revelation. Though lots of people are asking for a cask strength version, we have no current plans to do so.

Not sure on the timeline as this is our first venture into it, and we taste the rums every few weeks to monitor their progress. We'll bottle them when we think they're ready, whenever that is.

Nyc will definitely get a little, but your best bet is probably to find a friend or relative nearby who can come to the gift shop at the distillery and procure a bottle for you.
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