Hot Tips Dept: Cuban rum for sale in US?

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Capn Jimbo
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Hot Tips Dept: Cuban rum for sale in US?

Post by Capn Jimbo »

Thanks to one of our regulars for privately advising me of...


This:
https://www.planetbeerwineliquor.com/in ... =desc&n=60

And that link is/was to what? A company alleged to be based in Davenport, Florida (40 minutes westerly of Orlando, the home of Mickey Mouse, a fact that will soon be relevent. It turns out that our dear member had found a retailer going by the name of Planet Beer Wine Liquor. The link (provided by our friend and member) is above. So just yesterday, upon clicking I was taken to quite an amazing list of very expensive, collector's items (including a Black Tot) and yes, Cuban rums, ranging from around $100 to well over a $1000. It was clear this company was specializing in a huge selection of very costly and hard-to-get rums.

A brand new company.

Quite surprising as I'd never seen any online retailer, even from the UK with a selection even close to this one. And out of Davenport, FL? Really? Of course I was driven to call, the phone was answered and I expressed my love for Cuban cigars and rum and asked as to their location and the driving time from Ft. Lauderdale.

This was dutifully provided, but then the sales rep added that they did not have a showroom, but fulfilled orders from the internet via their warehouse, thus implying there was nothing to visit. I then asked how it was that they were able to sell Cuban rums, when even Cuban cigars were not yet legal in the US, as the embargo is still in place. The rep pled ignorance and suggested I call back after 5pm when the "manager who knows this stuff" would be in. I stated I would do so, and advise our dear member that I'd be doing so.


Then the shite hit the radiator...

I forgot to make the call, but this morning I got another PM from our informer who stated the site had gone down just hours after my call. Fortunately, my phone's redial function had saved the number, which I dialed and guess what? The number was non-working. I then zipped over to the good old "WHOIS" site to research the ownership and learned that whoever Planet really is, they'd made an anonymous registration to a company called "Just Host" out of Provo, Utah - no doubt run by a team of polygamous hosters, lol.

Now it just may be a total coincidence, but the disappearance of both website AND telephone seemed more than curious, eh? I simply have to guess that a call from a guy who wanted to visit, asked their location and pointed out the illegality of Cuban products got someone's attention, and pronto...

Stay tuned. I will... and a BIG thanks to our mystery member, who should really take credit! As for the Planet of Apes, Mickey Mouse has more credibility...




*******
http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/r ... liquor.com
http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/r ... liquor.com
And note this is where the original link (top of page) takes you:
http://just161.justhost.com/suspended.p ... liquor.com
(note the terms "suspended"/"disabled")
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Post by Hassouni »

Samaroli "Caribbean" Rum is something like 95% cuban, 5% Jamaican, and is legally sold here, and has been for a while...not sure how that filters through
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Post by Lucid »

K&L in California recently sold a "Caribbean Blend Single Barrel Rum" which they were less than coy in identifying as "CUribBeAN". It's sold out now but I picked up a bottle and note that the copy on the label is just as coy, alluding to Spanish Caribbean tropes while saying nothing definite.

It's labeled "Product of Scotland". Is that how it's able to be legally sold here? But if doing the aging, proofing, and bottling overseas is sufficient, why don't we see more of this?
Jamaica rum will always be my favorite style.
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Post by The Fat Rum Pirate »

Lucid wrote:K&L in California recently sold a "Caribbean Blend Single Barrel Rum" which they were less than coy in identifying as "CUribBeAN". It's sold out now but I picked up a bottle and note that the copy on the label is just as coy, alluding to Spanish Caribbean tropes while saying nothing definite.

It's labeled "Product of Scotland". Is that how it's able to be legally sold here? But if doing the aging, proofing, and bottling overseas is sufficient, why don't we see more of this?
It seems the bottlers have only recently cottoned onto this loophole in getting a label agreed in the US by just stating Caribbean.

To be honest I wouldn't get too excited about Cuban rum especially not as contributors on a site dedicated to unadulterated rum.

They pretty much mastered the art of macerated fruits, adding wine and under Cuban law upto 20 g/L of added sugar is allowed before it has to be labelled as an elixir.

If you aren't too worried about that then brands such as Ron Cubay and Santiago de Cuba are tasty but you'll never know quite what might be in your bottle.
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Post by Lucid »

I asked them about that, and the reply stated that there were no sweeteners, flavors, or colors.

Of course, it's still their word until it's tested (which I should probably do) but I'm slightly more trusting of a retailer putting it out under their house brand than a producer in a country with the history the Pirate refers to. I wouldn't be surprised if their partner for this is the blender who makes their (notably uncolored) private-label Scotch.

As to the "loophole", are you saying it's always been legal to import Cuban rum via a third country and that the label is the sticking point?
Jamaica rum will always be my favorite style.
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Post by The Fat Rum Pirate »

Lucid wrote:I asked them about that, and the reply stated that there were no sweeteners, flavors, or colors.

Of course, it's still their word until it's tested (which I should probably do) but I'm slightly more trusting of a retailer putting it out under their house brand than a producer in a country with the history the Pirate refers to. I wouldn't be surprised if their partner for this is the blender who makes their (notably uncolored) private-label Scotch.

As to the "loophole", are you saying it's always been legal to import Cuban rum via a third country and that the label is the sticking point?
I don't think its legal but if they don't know (or question in more detail) what it is, it seems it can pass through. Hence the name.

Testing with a Hydro might not reveal anything suspect. Samaroli won't have added anything - however they don't know what has gone on before them getting the casks.

Cuban rum is mostly multi column distilled and does have macerated fruits or wine added to it. It is often subject to solera blending and Cuban law allow 20 g/L of "additives" as stated before.

It's "authentic" in the sense they have been doing this for at least 100 years but such practices are often frowned upon by other rum producing islands such as Jamaica and Barbados.
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

Right on....


Ask Richard Seale about how honest the reps are, and how threatening they can be when they are shown to be liars based on contrary sugar tests...

As so well said by Bill Clinton "I did not have sex with that woman..."


To continue:
"Testing with a Hydro might not reveal anything suspect. Samaroli won't have added anything - however they don't know what has gone on before them getting the casks. "
I need to think about this one. It seems Pirate is implying that the government also tests with a simple hydrometer, and that the sugared product supplied has been diluted so as to test at the stated proof.

If that is so, it would mean that the bottler would have had to either add more alcohol or water to compensate for the higher density dissolved sugar solids, yes? OTOH if the government uses mean other than a simple hydro test, then the sugar will still be revealed by our hydros.

I believe that the government's tests for alcohol are specific and are quite accurate (Drejer states the EU's alcohol tests are within 0.3%). However any sugar - regardless of when added or by whom - will in fact increase the density - an alteration detected by subsequent hydrometer testing.

Nonetheless, this is a call for comments...
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Post by The Fat Rum Pirate »

Capn Jimbo wrote:Right on....


Ask Richard Seale about how honest the reps are, and how threatening they can be when they are shown to be liars based on contrary sugar tests...

As so well said by Bill Clinton "I did not have sex with that woman..."


To continue:
"Testing with a Hydro might not reveal anything suspect. Samaroli won't have added anything - however they don't know what has gone on before them getting the casks. "
I need to think about this one. It seems Pirate is implying that the government also tests with a simple hydrometer, and that the sugared product supplied has been diluted so as to test at the stated proof.

If that is so, it would mean that the bottler would have had to either add more alcohol or water to compensate for the higher density dissolved sugar solids, yes? OTOH if the government uses mean other than a simple hydro test, then the sugar will still be revealed by our hydros.

I believe that the government's tests for alcohol are specific and are quite accurate (Drejer states the EU's alcohol tests are within 0.3%). However any sugar - regardless of when added or by whom - will in fact increase the density - an alteration detected by subsequent hydrometer testing.

Nonetheless, this is a call for comments...
No not implying the UK government do test with a simple Hydro. I would be surprised if this particular rum had ever been tested at all.

You've raised some interesting points. I'll get in touch with some of the UK Indie bottlers and find out what happens. What the process is regarding proof and testing.
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Post by The Fat Rum Pirate »

I've floated the following to a few of our Indie bottlers here in the UK

I'm wondering if you could help with a few queries:

It concerns Government Testing. When you import single casks of rum how do you measure the ABV? Do you take the word of the distillery/broker initially? Do you receive documentation for import etc?

Also once rum is in the UK is it ever looked at or tested by a Government department? If so whom? (I tried to find out this a long time ago but hit a dead end)

How do you test proof of anything you have distilled or imported? It won't be as simple as Hydrometer test like I do as that can skew the ABV if their are additives?

I know Scotch Whisky is quite well policed and regulated but it seems despite the EU rules on additives rum isn't.
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

No need to reinvent the wheel ingli:


For over a year The Project tried to develop a protocol for reasonably accurate testing of sugar (based on density, also with light refraction), based on using easily available and widely respected equipment. Since most producers of wine, beer and spirits - particularly the thousands of smaller ones - use a hydrometer that seemed the way to go.

But try our best, we just couldn't come up with quite the right numbers. Fortunately for the world of rum lovers, Johnny Drejer did: his protocol was developed with the advice of you all know who, and proved to be quite accurate, reliable, inexpensive and easy to do.

Voila: now any rum webmaster or collector of spirits could now test their bottles. Essentially, the method relies on (a) testing the density of the spirit with a long scale hydro, (b) adjusting the reading for temperature using commonly available correction tables and then (c) using Drejer's good tables to calculate the sugar in grams.

To save yourself time, and effort, here are the Project pages you need:

The method:
http://rumproject.com/rumforum//viewtopic.php?t=1878

The Master Sugar List:
http://rumproject.com/rumforum//viewtopic.php?t=1683

The results of 783 tests by Sweden, ALKO (Finland), Drejer, Pirate, cyril, mamajuana and the Project. There were others. Finally - a single alphabetical listing of all sugar tests in the world, for easy reference. BTW, another 200 await only my lazy fingers to type them in...

So ingli - please check the list, get familiar with the now standard Drejer protocol, and perform and submit any additional tests you care to do. All tests and testers are credited in the list. All are welcome, and duplicate tests are encouraged (to see if there are regional and time of bottling differences).

Pirate, thanks again for taking up the cudgel and pressing the UK for some answers, should be interesting. I've already mailed Johnny on this one and await his reply. My money is on the notion that the government tests are specific to alcohol and are not affected by sugar at all, thus our hydro tests - density based - will remain both accurate and useful...


Friends, stay tuned...
Last edited by Capn Jimbo on Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

Immediate update, lol...


Apparently while I was busy typing away above, my good man Johnny D had already answered my question, thusly:
"Johnny Drejer:

Hi CJ,

To determine the Real proof of a Spirit, you would need access to some expensive lab equipment. The ones Ive heard off uses NIR (Near Infrared) to determine the Real %abv. Some people also run a redistillation process to seperate the ethanol from the Spirit. This is an example of such a device: http://www.anton-paar.com/corp-en/produ ... is-system/

Governments have access to these labs and its quite easy for them to determine these values.

As far as I know, the same equipment can also measure sugar content. If you really want to go into detail about whats in the liquid, a lab will use Mass Spectrometry to analyze the content.

Since I dont have access to such lab equipment, I test using my Hydrometer method and rely on the %abv on the label being correct (knowing that sometimes its not).

As you mention, it opens up for the possibility that some producers can "cheat" the Hydrometer test by having a different real %abv in the Spirit then printed on the label.
These can only be found if you can measure Real %abv which require access to a lab.

The state is normally very interested in the %abv being within the allowed 0.3% tolerance because taxes on Spirit are based on the % level.

Johnny"
In sum, my strong suspicions seem correct. The government tests are quite specific and extremely accurate as to alcohol, and I very much agree with Johnny, that this is because they collect taxes based on alcohol content.

It also confirms that in theory a bottler could cheat and add extra alcohol say to 43% from 40%, or like wise extra distilled water (which would lower the percent alcohol) - both with the objective of compensating for the added sugar and density.

How likely are these? Not very. A distiller is not likely to giveaway valuable alcohol, nor risk a huge problem with the government (who would view this as tax evasion). Likewise, I can't imagine any distiller diluting his product with distilled water to say 36 or 37% and risk losing customers to a spirit most would find weak.
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Re: Hot Tips Dept: Cuban rum for sale in US?

Post by Beukeboom »

Capn Jimbo wrote: I forgot to make the call, but this morning I got another PM from our informer who stated the site had gone down just hours after my call. Fortunately, my phone's redial function had saved the number, which I dialed and guess what? The number was non-working. I then zipped over to the good old "WHOIS" site to research the ownership and learned that whoever Planet really is, they'd made an anonymous registration to a company called "Just Host" out of Provo, Utah - no doubt run by a team of polygamous hosters, lol.

Now it just may be a total coincidence, but the disappearance of both website AND telephone seemed more than curious, eh? I simply have to guess that a call from a guy who wanted to visit, asked their location and pointed out the illegality of Cuban products got someone's attention, and pronto...

Stay tuned. I will... and a BIG thanks to our mystery member, who should really take credit! As for the Planet of Apes, Mickey Mouse has more credibility...
Hmmmm...IMHO it appears you asked questions that raised red flags with them that you may be a Federal LEO. If they were truly selling items that are on the embargo lists and doing so in bulk via a "warehouse" then they would be facing some serious charges. So they bolted however I would not be surprised if they have opened up another online storefront doing the same thing.
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Post by The Fat Rum Pirate »

I've received replies from the Independent bottlers I contacted.

Firstly I never suggested that the ABV was being incorrectly reported. All I ever stated was that these Independent bottlers cannot 100% guarantee that the rum the import - Cuban in this example, doesn't have additives. Some of them have been burned by this as a result when they have conducted expensive laboratory testing.

My view was that the UK does not do any testing on rum. Here is what they replied with. My original queries are further up this thread

"We source our casks from a well-established and respectable company here in the UK. The casks are already here in the UK at that time so we are not involved in importing them, so these questions would relate to them.

Our role is limited to bottling and sales in regard to rum."

Not entirely useful but the next two were much better

"As to strengths all spirit coming into the UK needs to be accompanied by the relevant documentation otherwise it cannot be enter into bond. These docs show volumes ,contents of barrels/IBC/tanks etc and strengths, years ago these would be tested again by UK Customs but now the responsibility is with the warehouse to see things are entered correctly . Owners can ask the warehouse to reguage stocks at any time and normally this would be done with a hydrometer and set of tables to allow for obscuration and temperature. When goods are moved to another warehouse for say bottling the strengths will be tested again and any loss in store accounted for ,the strength of the spirit will be adjusted to bottling strength and the goods bottled ,duty is then payable when the goods are cleared to UK duty paid unless the goods are exported underbond when another set of paperwork applies.



There is no UK government testing department any query to authenticity rests with Trading Standards and their dept. there is no System or Alko here !!

Basically similar rules apply to all other spirits ,imported or domestic."

and finally

"This is probably very disappointing but there is no testing at all, even for Scotch whisky. Bulk Scotch is monitored by the Whisky Verification Scheme… …which charges all of us distillers and blenders a fee to ‘audit’ our stocks in terms of un-reguaged LPA and age, but not for quality!



With regards to Rum, or indeed all bulk spirits, what we do is sample and match against purchase specification. So, each batch is random sampled against the original quotation sample and the paperwork compared with the detailed specification i.e. coloured/uncloured, flavoured/unflavoured, pot/column, ester content and country/distillery of origin. We would also check what wood had been used in the first, if any, period of ageing.



Each batch is tested on receipt – and this is in bulk container, one does not really ship in barrel – and the lab sample gives a fairly exact alc/vol. In almost all cases this is reduced to below 70% for re-casking and so demin water is added to reduce the shipped strength and then it sampled and re-measured. Once it goes into cask it is not normally re-guaged again until sold or blended, so the ‘angels share’ is only recalculated at this point.



So if ‘rum’ is imported under the rum specific commodity code, as specified by the seller, the ‘rum’ documentation is accepted by the next excise point. Once this commodity is within the EU then it carries the same code until it is recoded by the owner as an equivalent no. of litres alc of another commodity."

So as you can see the EU has rules but the UK doesn't bother to enforce them.
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Post by Capn Jimbo »

A big thanks to the Pirate for a yeoman's job of seeking out and reporting some very interesting data - and lots of it...

At first glance - and it deserves more than that - is yet another demonstration of how rum may evade transparency in the UK as well as the US.
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