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Capn Jimbo's Rum Project Forum
Rum Appreciation by and for the Compleat Idiot
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Capn Jimbo
Rum Evangelisti and Compleat Idiot
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 1365
Location: Paradise: Fort Lauderdale of course...
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 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:55 am Post subject: Finger on the Scale Dept: Hamilton to Color Chicago? |
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In the thread entitled "It is, isn't is.. Dept"...
Hamiton's on, off, on-again rum has all the earmarks of a young pot-stilled rum that is being promoted as "Hamilton's Jamican Pot Still Black Rum".
Unlike the Worthy Park, high ester, 95%, "no flavor or color agents" deal which he admitted fell apart, this new offering so far has no description other than the name. No distiller, no details at all, and no label yet applied for. And somehow rather than the limited editions of high quality, fully described and limited to just 1000 bottles, he now instead has purchased 13 times he intendeds to color wiith...
Five facking gallons of what he calls "caramel".
Without going into detail, this is 20 times the amount of E-150a burnt caramel coloring needed to flavor the 13,000 bottles implied in his brief summary. That's a whole lotta caramel coloring - no, not enough to color Chicago's rivers on Rum Day - but a suspiciously large order. Coloring is expensive. It just may be that the "five gallons of caramel" he admits to ordering is rather dark brown food caramel, of which five pounds would make more sense.
If indeed five pound of dark food caramel were to be added (not to worry, the TTB doesn't test for it), this would surely color the spirit, but also flavor, smooth add unnatural body to it. In other words, this would be producing a rum not much differently than many of the other younger, less expensive rums to which adding unlabeled flavouring caramel is business as usual.
Hamilton's admission of five pounds of caramel not only raised the hairs on my neck, but also the fur of the Artic Wolf who for the first time is challenging him on the MOR:
| Quote: | | Wolf: "5 Gallons of Caramel sounds like an awful lot to me? Is this caramel strictly for colouring, or are you expecting a flavour enhancement as well?" |
As mentioned in the other thread, this is a proper, brazen and bold question by the Artic Wolf, who normally is in ball licking mode. I'm proud of him. Booyah!
*******
Special Note: for those who wish to review the subject of caramel and their preparation - from lite carmelization to completely charcoalized - check this thread:
http://rumproject.com/rumforum/viewtopic.php?t=280
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Last edited by Capn Jimbo on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Capn Jimbo
Rum Evangelisti and Compleat Idiot
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 1365
Location: Paradise: Fort Lauderdale of course...
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Exploding monkeys...
Here's what's happened since yesterday. First, "Mikey" responded with his estimate that the five gallons of caramel yes, amounted to 0.2% (corrected from 2%), but no, "wouldn't expect it to make any noticeably difference to the taste" as per a Hamilton demo he cited.
The Wolf - suitably challenged by Mikey, howled right back:
| Quote: | "Based upon discussions I have had with those who make and blend rum, I am not so certain of that. I have posed the question of whether caramel colouring affects taste to three different master-distillers/blenders of rum and all three indicated that caramel in addition to colouring the rum, also has an impact upon the flavour of the rum. (Incidentally, those who make whisky seem to disagree.)
Please do not misinterpret my query, I do not believe that adding caramel to enhance flavour is a mortal sin. I am merely curious as to intent, and wondering at what level the caramel begins to add flavour.
(There may be some issues in terms of added flavour with respect to the type of caramel used. The distillers I talked about the issue made their own caramel, and I am not sure how different this 'home-made' caramel may be from what the industry commonly refers to as caramel colouring.)" |
An interesting and worthy reply. He must read The Project, lol (he does), although I can assure the furry one that the Malt Maniacs (and Ralfy) have well tested caramel coloring and found that coloring is indeed detectible to the palate in whisky. "Homemade caramel" is particularly ripe for this, as a sugar that is not completely burnt into E-150 form, retains significant flavoring capabilities.
"Mikey" was not to be detered. He noted that Hamilton's demo required only a "couple of drops" to color a glass of water, and that was undetectible, save for a trivial difference in mouthfeel.
Enough. Hamilton then posted and put the boyz back in place, in sum stating:
1. That the "caramel" he was ordering was "Sethness Caramel Color made from sugar cane sugar". He did not cite the actual product from the many they make.
2. That the minimum order was 5 gallons and that "all would not be used", accounting for the extra large amount that caught the attention of all.
3. He rejected making his own, as doing so was "inconsistent" (it is, on purpose) and then made another of his usual expert's corner claims:
| Quote: | | "The question of taste is an interesting one. It seems the caramels that impart the least color add the most flavor. It is my experience that they do change the mouthfeel of the finished product." |
http://ministryofrum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=50668#post50668
4. Most important, he does not answer Wolf's main claim: that the addition of caramel DOES affect the flavor, and wondering as to Hamilton's intent and extent of such caramel flavor.
Last and really quite admirable, he promises "As this project progresses I will be able to give more information about this rum and the decisions I made to bottle this rum.". Good, but how much information will we get? This would have been a perfect opportunity to at least start and name the distiller, the esters, and/or the age for example. Just basic stuff. Or to address the Worthy Park claim of "no flavor agents".
Bottom Line
As always I'll maintain a healthy skepticism of all rum claims, as this sadly is the dismal state of this spirit. At the same time it is altogether possible that Hamilton has seen the light in re real purity and freedom from "flavor agents" as he once claimed on his now cancelled Worthy Park labels. Only time will tell. Still, he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
It's only fair.
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Capn Jimbo
Rum Evangelisti and Compleat Idiot
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 1365
Location: Paradise: Fort Lauderdale of course...
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 3:37 am Post subject: |
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A chastened Wolfboy defers to the Alpha Preacher...
The most curious and lissen-to-me-the-expert statement by Hamilton was this curious pronouncement:
| Quote: | | Hamilton: "The question of taste is an interesting one. It seems the caramels that impart the least color add the most flavor. It is my experience that they do change the mouthfeel of the finished product." |
What was really interesting was Wolfboy's daring original challenge:
| Quote: | | Wolf: "5 Gallons of Caramel sounds like an awful lot to me? Is this caramel strictly for colouring, or are you expecting a flavour enhancement as well?" |
Although Wolf repeated his concern over the issue of unlabeled flavoring with caramel, Hamilton clearly snubbed him and refused to directly respond to this very good question. Properly chastened the Wolf cowered and once again went back into ball licking mode:
| Quote: | Wolf: "Thanks for the reply Ed.
It makes sense to me that the lighter the colour of caramel, the more flavour it would impart. The lighter colour implies to me anyway that the caramel would not be fully 'cooked' and would still contain free sugar."
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It's back to the future, I guess. The problem with this circle jerk of avoidance, and their discussion of color vs flavor is that they both are wrong, at least if you consider how carmelization proceeds. A lighter caramel the LESS flavor it exhibits.
A sugar syrup is warmed and thickened, hotter and hotter until you get into the "carmelization" states. As the sugar now "carmelizes" it is first light tan, then light brown, medium and finally a very dark brown as more of the sugar is toasted. At the same time the flavor (and aromas) become noticeably MORE intense, richer and sweeter. Just the opposite of the boyz' contentions
These flavors increase until just before you literally burn it to a crisp when it becomes "caramel color" - very dark, nearly black and no longer rich and sweet, but bitter and burnt. It is so concentrated that mere drops of what is now a bitter coloring agent are required.
What does Hamilton's own supplier say?
Please know what is legal "caramel coloring" is unpalatably bitter, burnt to near black. In simple terms it's far past caramel and is very dark, near black, burnt sugar. It is fortunate that only tiny amounts are needed (0.01% - a few drops per bottle). But what do I know?
Here's what his supplier states:
| Quote: | | Seth: "Caramel Color is not a flavor but simply a coloring agent. When Caramel Color is used at the usual low concentrations required in most food coloring applications, it generally has no significant effect on the flavor profile of the finished product" |
So - all this banter about lighter color having "more flavor" seems really pretty jerky.
It gets stranger...
Having been suitably prostated to by the Wolf, Hamilton decides to grace him with another tidbit:
| Quote: | | Hamilton: "In regards to caramel color, I chose a DS400 which is actually DoubleStrength. I could have used a caramel made from corn or sugar. I chose the more expensive Florida, sugar-based caramel because I don't really want to put a processed corn product into a bottle of rum." |
Now it gets weird. First, "DS400" is a Seth product is "double-strength". Now the five gallons of coloring - estimated per Wisnewski's typical 0.01% concentration - means that this is no longer 20 times the amount needed for 13,000 bottles, but 40 times!? Why? How "dark" is this proposed "Black" rum going to be? Inky black?
Next is this: DS400 is NOT a typical E-150a caramel color (which are designed specifically for the alcohol environment of spirits. This FDA class requires that the E-150a is made without sulfites or ammonium. But Hamilton's DS400 is actually an E-150d class product, which contains both ammonium and sulfites and whose use is intended for "Acidic environments such as soft drinks."
Compare: E-150a (designed for spirits) sulfites are <14 ppm. E-150d (for soft drinks) 1000-1400 ppm.
A strange and possibly illegal decision? Hamilton claims to have made this choice to use this E-150d product because "I chose the more expensive Florida, sugar-based caramel because I don't really want to put a processed corn product into a bottle of rum"
Are you buying this? Is this simply intended as yet another marketing claim? Or is it because Seth doesn't offer a double-strength in the almost universal E-150a (spirits) class? The selection of a d-class seems beyond strange - at least in the humble eyes of this Compleat Idiot.
JaRiMi?
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Last edited by Capn Jimbo on Sat May 04, 2013 2:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Capn Jimbo
Rum Evangelisti and Compleat Idiot
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 1365
Location: Paradise: Fort Lauderdale of course...
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Whisky Science and Dramming have the answers...
Summary: Caramel color comes in four basic forms: E-150a (actually called "spirit caramel" and b, c and d. Although the "a" version is almost universally used (because it is made without the use of ammonium or sulfites), versions "b" and "d" (which uses both ammoniuma and sulfites - Hamilton) have been occasionally used. The US regs do not seem to mandate E-150a. SWA preferes E-150a, and Bourbon rejects all coloring.
Relevent Quotes from Whisky Science:
| Quote: | | "The majority of single malts and virtually all the blends are coloured with E150a. The Scotch Whisky Association (SWA) published The Scotch Whisky Regulation in 2009, which states that only "plain caramel" (E150a) is allowed. This is just a guideline for the members of SWA and in fact the UK and EU laws permit the use of "spirit caramel", which is not exactly defined in law and can be any E150 and so at least some E150b and E150d have been used in Scotch whiskies." |
| Quote: | "E150c is positively charged and used in breweries and never in whisky. E150a has the best stability in high proof alcohols, especially when the raw material has been sucrose. Wheat and corn based syrups are widely used, but they are usually less stable in alcohol. E150a can tolerate up to 75% abv as most E150d is guaranteed to work up to 50% or 60% abv. E150b is used in the presence of tannins, especially in sherries, wines and some brandies and the residue sulphites of E150b probably also help to preserve the wine from excess oxidation.
The amount of caramel varies, in spirits it is usually about 0,1-0,5% or about 1-5g/litre as in comparison some 0,4% of E150d is used in cola soft drinks, 0,01-0,3% of E150c in beers and up to 10% of E150d in (cheap) cocoa powders." |
And from "Caramel in Whisky – Demystifying a Demon":
| Quote: | | "There are reports floating around that caramel colouring contains substances that are considered carcinogenic. But this accounts only for the ammonium based E150c and E150d. E150a used for whisky is not under suspicion here. A connection between cancer and plain caramel has not been found by any scientific study so far. By the way, E150d is used in acidic soft drinks like cola." |
| Quote: | "Spirit caramel tastes of caramel – No!
I have read claims by whisky drinkers that they were able to taste the caramelly tang of coloured whisky. I have even seen an instructional video on Youtube where the ‘expert’ states he actually likes caramel coloured whiskies because they match so well with desserts.
E150a is so highly caramelized that it does not taste sweet anymore. It actually tastes bitter. If you keep heating pure white sugar, it will turn brown first to give the familiar caramel used for sweets. But then it turns darker and darker untill all chemically bound water has evaporated, leving behind pure black carbon in a great mess, and if you don’t stop heating at the right moment, it will actually turn into a miniature volcano. For making E150a this process is stopped right before the caramel compounds chemically fall apart." |
*******
http://www.dramming.com/2012/02/16/caramel-in-whisky-demystifying-a-demon/
http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com/2011/04/caramel-e150.html
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Last edited by Capn Jimbo on Fri May 03, 2013 2:58 am; edited 2 times in total |
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da'rum
Admiral
Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 296
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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good stuff Jimbo
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Capn Jimbo
Rum Evangelisti and Compleat Idiot
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 1365
Location: Paradise: Fort Lauderdale of course...
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:13 am Post subject: |
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So how'd this exchange resolve?
1. The Wolfboy challenged Hamilton three times - first, blatantly and then in a diminished second attempt to draw Hamilton out on whether his coloring was intended to add flavor as well as color.
2. Hamilton neither confirmed nor denied Wolfie's concern, but the thread ended with Wolfie - in true beta fashion - deferring to what turned out to be Hamilton's final post on the matter. Wolf's third and final meek attempt regarding Hamilton's choice of DS400, a soft drink color:
| Quote: | | I am curious now about the caramel you chose, (Sethness Caramel Colour). Are there a lot of different choices? And was you choice based primarily upon expediency (IE availability and economics) or was there some real difference in the caramel that had to be considered? |
3. Hamilton - who abhors being pressed - left Wolfie twisting in the wind. There was a audible hum from the observing monkey mob, but not a single simian dared speak our, for or against. Two Alphas were sparring, and it was time to hang back. Hamilton didn't care enough to answer him, so neither did they. Wolfie got dissed and now must surely know it. He is unlikely to get an answer - at least until the Preacher reads this. So this is how the exchange ended...
With a distant monkey murmur over dead silence, and with Wolfy spinning himself into a hole. A good man, at least he tried...
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Capn Jimbo
Rum Evangelisti and Compleat Idiot
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 1365
Location: Paradise: Fort Lauderdale of course...
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 1:48 am Post subject: |
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Two new intruders at the Zoo...
It all started when Wolfie, of all predators, raised the notion of the addition of caramel for more than color. He raised this openly, was ignored, then subtly, and was still ignored. Having been publicly dissed, he pretended he'd been acknowledged, then let the Preacher off the hook and meekly raised this question:
| Quote: | | "I am curious now about the caramel you chose... Are there a lot of different choices? And was your choice based primarily upon expediency... or was there some real difference in the caramel that had to be considered?" |
The Preacher, relieved, quickly answered "I chose a DS400 which is actually DoubleStrength." and justified a color normally used in soft drinks on the basis that it was made from "expensive Florida sugar" rather than from corn. It might have added a penny a bottle in the tiny amounts required, and cola coloring will not withstand nearly as high an alcohol content as the the usual choice, E-150a (spirit caramel) used by most distillers.
But then an intrusion...
"Sailor" got back to the crux of the matter. Hamilton had gone from an age spirit "free of color or flavor agents" to a NAS labeled "Black" and clearly (pun) intended to be heavily colored with "double strength" cola coloring. Sailor challenged this and good on him:
| Quote: | | "Or you could have skipped the coloring all together. What exactly is gained by adding coloring? How does it benefit the spirit? Isn't it only for me too marketing?" |
Terrific! My hero! And Hamilton's response? Nada, just dead silence. Three days passed, and then? Another established poster (with 39 posts) named Card Player jumped in and supported - yes! - Sailor, stating:
| Quote: |
"+1
The closer to it's pure form the better I think. Makes me feel better when I drink spirits." |
I love the phrase "pure form". This is the core reason why the noble spirits are noble and rum is most just fun shit. It is now another two days later and the Preacher remains silent. Wanna guess what he's thinking? 1%? Or...
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RT
Quartermaster
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 100
Location: great white north
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Disappointing that you might have taken such a demotion from Cap'n.
*******
Capn's Log: We all know 1% as da'rum, and I'd take a demotion to this honest, intelligent and outspoken man any day. Sailor and Card Player are putting their considerable gonads on the line, what with the sudden demise of Dai, Spinner and 1%. I admire them all.
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RT
Quartermaster
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 100
Location: great white north
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, I was obliquely referring to someone's probable most recent delusion, that Sailor was likely another of your alter-egos, i.e., your self-demotion from cap'n to sailor.
Sorry to be so cryptic.
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sailor22
Swabbie
Joined: 29 Mar 2013
Posts: 35
Location: Tallahassee
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Um... I'm not him. I'm me. A 64yr old spirits enthusiast living in Tallahassee, Florida.
Started with Rum years ago but pretty much left it for Bourbon and Brandy. My Bourbon wanderings have informed my current view ofmost shelf Rum as mostly "cocktails in a bottle" due to all the added flavors. Plus I was discouraged that no one seemed to care. That seems to be changing a bit now that some whiskey drinkers in my circles are branching out and trying complex Rums.
I just returned from St Maarten where I explored some Rums made to appeal to French palates. They had more in common with Cognac or Armagnac than what is popular here in the states. Loved most of them and now think the idea of Rum without added flavors is actually being done, done well, and is an intriguing spirit. I just wish more of them were imported. |
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RT
Quartermaster
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 100
Location: great white north
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, but it doesn't matter who you are. It only matters who the Preacher thinks you are, as he reaches for the BAN button.
Welcome to the fray.
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da'rum
Admiral
Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 296
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Ha, the old nutbag will be kicking the cat at the outrageous posts calling into question the quality of his future project.
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