Rum's Future: The most important post here. I mean it!

This is the main discussion section. Grab yer cups! All hands on deck!
User avatar
Capn Jimbo
Rum Evangelisti and Compleat Idiot
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:53 pm
Location: Paradise: Fort Lauderdale of course...
Contact:

Rum's Future: The most important post here. I mean it!

Post by Capn Jimbo »

This is perhaps the most important post on this entire forum!
. . . .(aka Johannes van den Heuval responds to the Capn)


Note: This thread ends with a brilliant (and sad) post from JaRiMi - an expert of great integrity, understanding and observation. If you have any cajones and want to know the real truth about whisky and rum, read it all. Otherwise STFU.


Over the past few years I've noted a disturbing trend - dominance of the shelves by new, cheap and invented spiced/flavored rums (with the ever fewer good sipping rums disappearing or being pushed out of the way), and the emergence of new super-duper-intergalactic premium rums at mega price points. Latest example: Bacardi 150th Anniversary Rum at about $2000 a copy.

I speculated that this was due to our recession with the dying of the middle class and the emergence of an even more wealthied 1%. I found it particularly bothersome that the new mega-rums seemed priced based mostly on marketing and with little or no real provenance.

With this in mind I dropped an email to Johannes of the Malt Maniacs for his very qualified view from the whisky world. His answer was amazingly disturbing.


First, my email:
Dear Johannes...

You know by now that I remain a fan and promoter of you and the Maniacs. In the world of rum, The Rum Project more than holds its own, but whisky? I gladly leave whisky to those who have true talent.

Now my question.

Due to the recession the wacky world of rum has seen two trends. First is the further cheapening and alteration (via additives) to create ever growing lines and shelf space devoted to column stilled flavored and spiced rums aimed at the ever poorer 99%. The dominance of this artficially modified stuff is stupendous, with the ever fewer sipping rums actually being moved to tiny, out of reach areas.

The second trend: a release of super duper intergalactic premium rums at stratospheric prices directed at the 1%, super wealthy. These include Diplomatico Ambassador, Brugal 1888, Panamonte Reserva Preciosa (around $300) and lately Bacardi's 150th Anniversary Release at $2000.

It was the Bacardi release that led to this email, as Bacardi is known for and produces mostly cheap crap, mixers of the Dingleberry Rum variety, so the release of a $2000 anniversary rum - with no real provenance or past releases - was an exercise in ego and exclusivity alone.

Although these prices ($250 and up) are not unusual for fine single malts, they are stratospherically rare for rum, which normally sell in the $12 to $30 range. Now in a couple of these super rums, the distiller must justify the cost and in two cases, do so by promoting their "purity, and freedom from additives, coloring and filtering". Sound familiar? Of course.

But unlike whiskies, none of these invented releases have any real history or the accumulation of respect and favorable reviews to even remotely justify their cost. All they offer are stunning bottling and presentation and lush, exclusive marketing copy.

I wonder if you could kindly comment as to your whiskyview as to what justifies mega-prices? Is it as simplistic as rum's dependence on marketing alone? How much is based on past performance, reputation etc.? I hope you'll run with this, as I'm truly curious as to how super-pricing/value is perceived and justified in your world...

I don't want to suggest your answer, so please do give it a go, won't you?

Always, thanks, regards,

Capn Jimbo

And Johannes amazing and disturbing reply...

Hi there, 'Capn',

Nice to hear from you again!

These days, the same corporate principles seem to plague both the whisky world and the rum world. In fact, these forces seem to be active in the entire international business world. It is no longer enough to make a healthy profit - if a company doesn't make the absolute maximum possible profit it is being punished by shareholders and 'the financial markets'.

You mentioned Bacardi - as you may know they have entered the whisky world as well a few years ago. (See http://www.maltmadness.com/malt-whisky/ ... ustry.html) And other mega-producers like Diageo and Pernod Ricard have lots of interests as well in other drinks industries besides malt whisky. The marketing and PR people move freely between brands, categories and countries in these mega-corporations, so the 'tricks' that work in one place are quickly copied to other area's as well.

I'm afraid that these developments are destroying the last few 'good' types of drinks where there was still room for tradition and 'happy accidents' - single malt whisky and good rum. In both cases these used to be 'niche markets', and therefore uninteresting for the average ambitious marketing manager to get too busy with. Unfortunately, with the growth of both categories they became interesting targets for 'milking' by ambitious people within the industry while at the same time they attracted droves of new customers who were more interested in the 'snob appeal' of these drinks than in their intrinsic qualities.

So, I think that there are many similarities between single malt whisky and sipping rums - and I fear that we are now witnessing the sad demise of both categories. Culprits are both the industry and the customers that seem happy to pay more for crappier products. I'm just happy that I've laid down a reserve stock of a few good single malts to keep me happy for a few years to come, but I haven't bought any new bottlings for a few years now. The really good malt whisky bottlings are now few and far between - and usually priced well outside my comfort zone.

I don't want to be a party-pooper - but does that answer your question? ;-)

Sweet drams,

Johannes
Your views?
Last edited by Capn Jimbo on Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:21 am, edited 5 times in total.
NCyankee
Admiral
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:52 am

Post by NCyankee »

This has also carried over into Tequila, where these days most of the new brands you see are celebrity endorsed in fancy bottles with high price tags.

DeLeon Tequila is a perfect example of this - some marketing type tried to make like Sidney Frank and buy an existing Tequila brand, jack the price up to $125 - $250 and sell to the pretentious. Remains to be seen if he will succeed, but the few true Tequila lovers I have read who have tried it says it is a very mediocre product.

The exception is Casa Noble which is one of the best in the world, in which Carlos Santana recently purchased a large share - but he seems to have a great deal of integrity and I hope he doesn't interfere in their production process to enhance the bottom line.
RT
Quartermaster
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:21 pm
Location: Erie PA

Post by RT »

OK, it took a while, but I finally got a review out of my sister for the Casa Noble Reposada:

smoky/oaky scent; clean and smooth, full flavor with strong "high notes;" very warm down throat. very easy to drink -- doesn't make you shiver but packs a punch; nice for sipping neat.
Students of the cask, reject naught but water. -Charles Gonoud, Faust Act 2
NCyankee
Admiral
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:52 am

Post by NCyankee »

I have now tried all three regular expressions of the Casa Noble - Crystal, Repo, and Anejo - and they are all at the top of my respective lists. The anejo is very sweet and mellow but still has some nice agave flavor, and doesn't taste as though the sweetness was artificially punched up like some do.

I also have a bottle of the single barrel repo I am saving for a special occasion, it is very hard to come by.
JaRiMi
Admiral
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:14 am

Post by JaRiMi »

A very typical scene in rum (and partially in malt whisky as well) is that brand G has for years had a very good aged X product either marked / not with an age, which has had a very reasonable price tag. This is THE product that has created a group of loyal fans across the world, and is often referred to by all with words like "phenomenal" or "de facto reference for good rum".

Brand G is bought by a conglomerate giant, or merges with other brands, to better reach the world. A few negative things usually can follow this fateful event...

A) Brand G changes the flavour profile of product X - all of a sudden it is sweeter, less complex, and simply a shadow of the older bottlings. New bottling is priced at a slightly higher level than before.

B) Brand G releases a new product Y, that tastes as good (or a bit better) than what product X used to - but has 5 times the pricetag!

What has happened to cause these changes?

1) Previously brand G used to mix in their 6yo age statement / XO bottling rums that were a lot older than the age statement. Now, the older rums are only used for the product Y.

2) Brand G has maximized sales & bottling capacity, but actual rum production, i.e. distillation capacity, remains at the same old level. It automatically means that they must now use younger rum for product X, in order to match the increased demand. Quality of product X goes down, especially since the older stock is now put in product Y to gain max profits.

3) Added sweetness is often used because of the aspartame-sweetener generation's growing yearn for sweeter products. Similarly, extra sweetness is added in an attempt to cover the change in the age profile of used rum stocks for product X.

All in all, it means worse product X for a slightly higher price, and if you want the old good product, you'll have to fork up for product Y's prices.

In malt whisky, distillers used to once put much older stocks of whisky into their 10yo or 12yo base products for example. This was done to create a desired flavour profile, and because there simply wasn't today's market for super-premium, extra high-priced single casks, or limited edition bottlings.

As demand has risen *A LOT*, and production with pot stills cannot rise accordingly, today you'd be quite right in guessing that not a day older than 10yo whisky goes to your bottle of 10yo malt.

[NOTE: In some cases say a new 15yo product is launched containing in first batches more aged, better casks - but soon afterwards the flavour profile starts to change - to the worse - so do buy a case or two of bottles with the same bottling code when you find a stunning product!]

There is a tremendous pressure to get rid of age statements alltogether, because the industry wants us to pay premium prices for younger products than what people have grown to expect from a good malt whisky for example. They say that by careful blending of malts (remember - single malt means simply that all malt whisky used for a bottling comes from the same distillery - dozens of casks are blended together in batches to create a 10yo brand E for example), and modern cask management, they can create flavour profiles that taste as good (or better) than what the actual age of the whisky would suggest.

For some part, this is actually true. On a few occasions, I've tasted single malt whisky aged just 20 months - 36 months, and guessed that the age of the whisky was close to 1o years - so good & mature was the produce! Amazing, I think. Obviously they've learnt a thing or two about cask management & maturation...!

Another matter all together is, why such a "whisky" (20 months old Scotch isn't officially even whisky as yet; it has to mature 3 years to be called that - so far) is regularly priced even higher than a standard 10yo, 12yo or even 15yo.

Product costs are derived from

- raw materials (admittedly, barley for example has gone up in price in last 10 years - but not in gigantic steps),

- production costs (most distilleries are nowadays highly automated units, with 1 -2 persons only on shift to control the whole process)

- cask prices (risen, especially for sherry casks - this is why the whisky industry is producing less & less 1st fill oloroso whiskies)

-warehouse costs (a major factor, I always thought: Whisky needs to be stored for years, so this has been used in the past as one of the main factors of pricing, i.e. long storage)

- logistics (again, increasing in cost, but on a moderate scale)

- other cost factors (marketing etc)

To this day, I have not seen an equation that could explain why a no-age-statement (NAS) bottle containing a malt whisky of 3yo would cost more than an age statement bottling of say 18yo malt whisky..?

It is sad to say, but when the whisky (and rum) industry is doing very well and the demand is high, it is actually the consumer that suffers - because the price vs. quality ratio changes drastically to the worse.

Do not get me wrong here: I am the biggest fan of Rum and Whisky. Have been for a few decades. I do everything in my power to promote good Rum and Whisky. It does not mean, however, that I would step into a state of voluntary blindness, or mindlessly accept all the marketing rants.

The current trend worries me, because I fear that eventually the efforts of maximizing profitability to levels never before seen may also cause a collapse of the whole scene. And as a true friend of both Rum and Whisky, and a friend of many people in the industry, this would be the last thing I'd like to see in my lifetime.
da'rum
Minor God
Posts: 957
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:09 pm

Post by da'rum »

I don't buy expensive rums, the most expensive bottle I bought was the ED21 which was a one off splurge just to see if it was worth it. Although a very nice rum it wasn't significantly better to justify the price gap between my other favourites.

Yes the mega firms are bad for the industry but as with everything it is the customers, the market, us the people who buy this stuff that are to blame.

What's something worth? What the market dictates.

We must do our very best to explain to the naive or uneducated that they must resist the urge to buy the flashy bottle and we also must provide reliable reviews on rum/whisky that meets the minimum requirements of true enthusiasts.

If it all goes down the toilet then grass roots products will emerge, first by bootleggers then by craft distilleries. There is no holding back our desire to fuck everything up though, so then the cycle will continue.

It is a shame.
in goes your eye out
User avatar
Capn Jimbo
Rum Evangelisti and Compleat Idiot
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:53 pm
Location: Paradise: Fort Lauderdale of course...
Contact:

Agreed!

Post by Capn Jimbo »

Agreed!


Honestly, it doesn't look good. More than a few long time rum afficianados have note the changes in products. JaRiMi makes this point well.

At the mega stores (Total Wine, ABC) I've noted the disturbing trend of fewer and fewer quality sippers, while the faux flavored and spiced rums take over all the prime real estate at eye level. For example one store has about five or six shelves. The bottom shelf has the bulk, made up named generics, while the next five shelves are dominated by Bacardi, et al.

Out of perhaps 180 feet of shelf space, the true sippers have been diminished to about 20 feet. At one point these were integrated at eye level, but now they have been moved to the end of the top, too high to see, hard to reach shelves.

If things are to change (beyond the Diageo's finding god), the retailers must wake up and promote the more profitable sippers. This can only happen if - like single malts or bourbons - the flavored and lesser spirits are physically separated, with the sippers centralized or highlighted in a fashion as to imply the superior quality they represent.

By offloading them to hard-to-see, hard-to-reach location they actually devalue the best rums, and highlight the big turnover Batshit Dingleberry's...
JaRiMi
Admiral
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:14 am

Post by JaRiMi »

In general, the quality spirits business has become the target of the same kind of megabusiness-thinking as electronics, telco, etc etc. Quality means nothing - profits is everything - low costs mean bigger profits - consumers do & drink whatever we say is good.

If the consumer response would be to stop buying the products due to dropped quality, or rising prices, these megabusiness-tycoon companies would have to take a moment to think about their strategy. But as witnessed, the masses are exactly as easy to control and guide to the desired end than what is believed by the tycoons. This to them is a confirmation, that their chosen strategy is the correct one, as profits rise whilst costs go down (along with quality).

What is alarming is that they are now doing the same move on many fronts - whisky, rum, cognac - simultaneously. They CAN do this, because the ownership of distilleries are in less hands than ever before.


Most of the quality spirits are just a shadow of what they used to be once. And this really applies widely accross the ranges and spirits. Anyone can verify this by buying an older bottling from an auction, and then comparing it to the new (same) one. In 95% of the cases, the difference is stupenduous.

Too bad there aren't any auction houses selling older rum bottlings, as there are for whiskies. I'd be a prime customer for them - as I am in the whiskies. Other option? Move to buy rum from small independent bottlers, and get REAL rum. I mean REAL RUM. Staggeringly different from today's top brand's standard products. An eye-opener. Don't take my word for it, try it yourself. Oh, and if you are under 35yo person from US, chances are that it will take quite a bit of effort to get used to the idea that rum is NOT a sugary, sweet drink. :-)



*******
Capn's Log: It is always a treat to read JaRiMi's posts, and today we have been rewarded with three of them. I suspect da'rum is in head nodding agreement with this one, as am I.
NCyankee
Admiral
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:52 am

Post by NCyankee »

Would you give some examples of such independent bottlers? Is renegade rum one? I have seen them online but usually at around $100 so have been off my radar.
JaRiMi
Admiral
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:14 am

Post by JaRiMi »

NCyankee wrote:Would you give some examples of such independent bottlers? Is renegade rum one? I have seen them online but usually at around $100 so have been off my radar.
Sure can - Berry Bros & Rudd, Cadenhead, Bristol Classic Rums, Velier, Samaroli, Gargano, Duncan Taylor & Co. and Dewar Rattray to start with.

Renegade rum by Bruichladdich is an indy-bottler, but these guys tend to mess with the rum in some funny ways, like finishing them in a wine cask or such. They are ok, but occasionally - odd results.

Unadulterated rums - what a difference..
da'rum
Minor God
Posts: 957
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:09 pm

Post by da'rum »

I suspect da'rum is in head nodding agreement with this one
I am nodding in general.

The point of independent distillers I can understand as smaller operations allow for more care and time taken in the distilling process. Also there is a smaller chance of 'enhancements' being added during or after distillation. I have discussed with Jimbo before that home distillers make a fine product that tops most commercial brands out there.

The problem with these smaller artisan bottlers is the price. Maybe it's not unreasonable for the quality but it is expensive in most cases and requires a good pay cheque to afford the privilege.

Good rum should not be expensive, excellent rum shouldn't be either.

As for the mainstream spirits quality, I couldn't agree more.
in goes your eye out
JaRiMi
Admiral
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:14 am

Post by JaRiMi »

da'rum wrote:
The point of independent distillers I can understand as smaller operations allow for more care and time taken in the distilling process. Also there is a smaller chance of 'enhancements' being added during or after distillation. I have discussed with Jimbo before that home distillers make a fine product that tops most commercial brands out there.
Independent distillers - hmm, I guess Richard Seale is one for example? Not to confuse with the really small-scale ones here. If a distillery is not owned by a mega-company such as Diageo, they usually pay more attention to quality, and also their product is not so readily available.

Just to clarify, the independent bottlers I mentioned above - none of them actually make rum themselves, they just bottle it.
The problem with these smaller artisan bottlers is the price. Maybe it's not unreasonable for the quality but it is expensive in most cases and requires a good pay cheque to afford the privilege.

Good rum should not be expensive, excellent rum shouldn't be either.
Thing is, these small companies have bigger costs and a different cost structure, and often release rums that are single cask. I'd rather put my money in their pocket, and buy less (but significantly better rums), than support the big guys, and buy bulk crap that I do not even know what its made of really, and what am I tasting in the rum.

I guess the issue here is, that in USA the bulk shit is so cheap compared to these (Europea) independent bottler's goods, that the difference is vast. Here in Europe it isn't, really. Sadly they try to make us pay premium prices for the bulk shit also :-)
da'rum
Minor God
Posts: 957
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:09 pm

Post by da'rum »

JaRiMi wrote:
Independent distillers - hmm
By that I did mean those not floated on the share market or owned by the machine but still a commercial entity.
JaRiMi wrote:Just to clarify, the independent bottlers I mentioned above - none of them actually make rum themselves, they just bottle it.
In that context perhaps Pusser's and a lot more may be labelled as such? As they are consignment rums blended to a recipe.
JaRiMi wrote: I'd rather put my money in their pocket, and buy less (but significantly better rums), than support the big guys, and buy bulk crap that I do not even know what its made of really, and what am I tasting in the rum.
Here it gets a little muddy, yes I agree but to an extent. Bulk shit from the industrial columns with minimal ageing is horrrible and a rip off. I would love to support a small artisan distilleries BUT they must produce markedly superior product than those who are larger but make quality rums. (Mount Gay, Appletons, ED, Pusser's, SC etc)
Perhaps not bottlers though as there is no real guarantee that the rum isn't just a barrel bought from DDL, Wray and Nephew or someone equally as productive and then set to age. This doesn't make a better rum it makes a unique one because it isn't blended and aged for a custom time. Perhaps they even swap the barrels a couple of times? Does that make it worth the extra money? I'm not sure, the tight arse in me says no but the latent eccentric millionaire says yes.

It is my opinion that a major factor (not the only factor) in quality is run time, if the still is run as slow as possible on a spirit run then the product is as good as it can be. I think that modern day distilleries haven't got the luxury of slow runs and I believe that the wash is brought to temp quickly and the run is probably quicker than ideal.

I read that earlier Appleton's had a different profile with a heavier ester taste I then read that the distillery stopped using dunder and added young raw rum in it's place, maybe when they were bought out. That would change the profile if true but does it make it a lesser rum? Does it make the earlier versions (pre Wray and Nephew) collectable and desirable to those, like myself, who have only tried the last 12 year versions? I think it doesn't make the modern version a lesser rum merely a different one. But I'm starting to seriously wander off point now so I'll leave this for another conversation.

JaRiMi wrote:I guess the issue here is, that in USA the bulk shit is so cheap compared to these (Europea) independent bottler's goods, that the difference is vast. Here in Europe it isn't, really. Sadly they try to make us pay premium prices for the bulk shit also :-)
Hey Aldi has some quality plonk! ;)
in goes your eye out
JaRiMi
Admiral
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:14 am

Post by JaRiMi »

da'rum wrote: Perhaps not bottlers though as there is no real guarantee that the rum isn't just a barrel bought from DDL, Wray and Nephew or someone equally as productive and then set to age. This doesn't make a better rum it makes a unique one because it isn't blended and aged for a custom time.
Independent bottlers DO buy their rum from DDL, Wray and Nephew, Caroni, etc. They have to get their rum from somewhere, right? They make a mention of where the rum came from on the label..

What they bottle IS a better, more authentic rum. The rum may originate from the same distilleries, BUT:

- Its not blended with bulk rum from a dozen other distilleries - most other rums are, actually. Did you know that Bacardi contains Angostura bulk rum? And many others? They cannot make enough rum to put in all the bacardi sold, so they buy bulk & mix it..and they aren't the only ones..

- It is bottled PRECISELY at the age mentioned on the label. Most of the big brand rums are not, they contain (maybe) a drop of that precious 12yo, rest is much, much younger. Not so with indy bottlings, which are really small-batch, or better yet single cask.

- It does not contain added sugars, essences etc to make the flavour bland and shitty.

- It isn't charcoal filtered for that "extra mellowness"...strike that out, for that bland, crappy taste I mean..

What they bottle is RUM - from the cask, without gimmicks, without filtrations, without nonsense. Taste it - and you will see the difference quite clearly. With indy bottlings, you can really TASTE the character of the distillery where the spirit was made at. What a difference, I tell you! I even had Mount Gay distillery's unfiltered, unchanged rum recently - and I think Mount Gay's rums are very good indeed. This one I tasted? Untamed cousin, with layer upon layer of flavours...much more complex even. Some would not like it, because it is dry and uncompromising. It hasn't got sugar for that sweet tooth. But good? OH YEAH...!!!!

Try a 1975 Demerara bottled by any of the indy-bottlers, and then try any of the commercial El Dorado's.. Difference? Heck YEAH...

Try a Cuban Sancti Spiritus rum "as is", and compare to Cuban rum from the store...MAN!!! There IS a difference..BIG one.
da'rum
Minor God
Posts: 957
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:09 pm

Post by da'rum »

I haven't tried any really old indy bottling's and I will take your word for it about the difference in tastes. I can say with surety that craft home made rum is also markedly different and often much better than commercial offerings.

As for Bacardi, I didn't know and didn't care, but am not surprised they make their stocks up from elsewhere I am surprised that it isn't bought from BP or Shell though.

In the end I do understand what your saying and when I bump into a good bottling I'll be sure to try it.

Cheers
in goes your eye out
Post Reply